davekro Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I would like to start a thread for discussion of HLF automated espresso machines. If you run HLF's (4600-G2, 5500, other models) lets share things we've learned to help them operate more smoothly, technical insights, trouble shooting and tweaks made. I have been running two 4600-G2's for just under 2 months now. My main issues have been issues with beans being too oily and the powder bin capacity being undersized. I just added an extended bin kit to one machine, which adds only about 40% more milk. If anyone here has a suggestion for another forum (maybe more OCS espresso oriented) that may be more useful to (and seen ;o) by auto espresso machine users, I'd appreciate if you could let me know. I have a lot of experience with Colibri LX's and Saeco DA 7P's over the years, but these are a hole 'nother animal. Thanks in advance for anyone willing to share their knowledge of these machines here. I am willing to share a lot that I have learned in my ramping these HLF's up in a very high volume account, if their is any interest here. Thank you, Dave PS. I have been in OCS and vending since 1984. Recently, I have changed to OCS only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I know nothing about HLFs, but should you need Cafection or VKI help, I can offer it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris in bc Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 cafection is the best! I love fresh ground coffee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekro Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 I know nothing about HLFs, but should you need Cafection or VKI help, I can offer it. I would love to know about whatever higher end (than Colibri which is good for it's niche) equipment anyone is using in OCS accounts. Please say what brand and mode(s) you use. Info about the company and or distibutor's customer/technical support, parts availabilty, equipment reliability, design plus and minus's and overall in the field experience would be hugely helpful for all operating in this niche market. I have not (yet) found much info like this. It seems that if equipment is not sold and supported by large U.S. disrtibutors (like Vendor's Exchange does a great job supporting Colibri's), that we are rolling the dice on buying/using equipment made in Italy or other Euro countries with little to no tech or parts support. So reports on good relaible higher end ($4-$6,000 whole sale cost??) equipment with actual tech and parts support would be extremely helpful. I have not researched much into this area because the account I was bidding on (and got) was set on HLF due to another division having them. I'd love to hear about other super automatic bean to cup machines like Avalon etc. that can not only make latte and cappuccino, but french vanilla and chai based espresso drinks. I hope this opens a discussion in this niche of the office coffee market that can benefit all OCS operators in or considering getting into this area. Thanks in advance, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission vending Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Can you guys post links to the machines and models so as to help others read and learn about these machines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Check out the offerings from Crane (National Vendors) and that Betson Enterprises reps. Both will offer good support for what they sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekro Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Thank you for the suggestion to post links! HLF espresso machine I am using 4600-G2 two bean hoppers and grinders, 3 powder bins, 1 liter boiler, 8, 12 and 16 oz drinks, presses espresso in coffee group (high pressure), makes French vanilla latte, cappuccino, mochas. http://www.hlf-usa.com/eng/4600Gp3_eng.htm Cafection.com I would love the hear about Caffection. - What model(s) are people familiar with and are using in OCS high volume accounts. - They use a "reverse French press system". Is that different from the espresso pressed from the Colibri LX and HLF's coffe group at high pressure? - I see they are in Quebec Canada. Are ther U.S. distributors (names) for parts and tech support? http://www.cafection.com/en/products Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I think betson is the US distributor for Cafection.. here is a link to a discussion on their equipment.. http://vendiscuss.net/index.php?/topic/19873-i-need-coffee-advice/page-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I would love to know about whatever higher end (than Colibri which is good for it's niche) equipment anyone is using in OCS accounts. Please say what brand and mode(s) you use. Info about the company and or distibutor's customer/technical support, parts availabilty, equipment reliability, design plus and minus's and overall in the field experience would be hugely helpful for all operating in this niche market. I have not (yet) found much info like this. It seems that if equipment is not sold and supported by large U.S. disrtibutors (like Vendor's Exchange does a great job supporting Colibri's), that we are rolling the dice on buying/using equipment made in Italy or other Euro countries with little to no tech or parts support. So reports on good relaible higher end ($4-$6,000 whole sale cost??) equipment with actual tech and parts support would be extremely helpful. I have not researched much into this area because the account I was bidding on (and got) was set on HLF due to another division having them. I'd love to hear about other super automatic bean to cup machines like Avalon etc. that can not only make latte and cappuccino, but french vanilla and chai based espresso drinks. I was wondering why you chose to go with HLF machines so this explains it. I have herd good things about HLF equipment but because there is no dedicated distributor here I am yet to purchase any. How long have you had them & how are you finding their backup/parts support in the US? When you ask for reports on good high end equipment are you referring to super-automatic machines using fresh milk like the HLF or also machines that are using powdered milk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekro Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 Kiwi, The U.S. Distributor is Gourmet Coffee Solutions dba Cafe A-Roma. A very small operation in Hayward, Ca. Thirty minutes from my account (and where I grew up ;o). They do sell the machines wholesale but their main business is selling machines to accounts, then selling them product. They supply a service warranty that is dependant on buying all product from them. They said themselves and C a n t ee n are the only OCS business' that have these HLF's (besides a few small OCS guys like me I guess). Since selling and supporting small purchasers of one or a few machines (like me), does not seem to be a valued part of their business model, parts and tech support are not really there. This part I am very disappointed with. I was under the gun of time pressure. By the time my account finally decided what kind of Espresso machine they wanted. (HLF like their other division), I had a very short time to find where and how I could buy them. Until then, all I was seeing was UK and Austraila sources. They seem to be very popular in UK & Aus. I have years of experience with excellent parts and tech support on Colibris from Vendor's Exchange ( http://www.veii.com/ ) in Ohio. I also have years of so so parts support and zero tech support from Saeco USA for 5 DA7P's I got in the mid 90's. But the Saeco's held up well and I became my own tech support. When the last main Saeco PCB died, I had to retire them. I was leary of going with this small distributor (he says he is the only U.S. importer BTW), but the fact that I really had no time to try to research other higher end espresso equipment and the fact the distributor was literally just down the road, I pulled the trigger. A caveat... I am a very detailed oriented person and did take a lot of his time there picking his brain on HLF. It was all smiles and helpful when I was considering buying. After buying, it's hard to get calls or emails returned. But that may be that I ask to many questions. YMMV. They definitely do not have much parts support. They basically have the owner, a field service repair rep and an inhouse guy who also goes out for service calls. Where are you located? What super auto equipment have you used or are familiar with. I REALLY need to know what else is available for this niche. My account is adding a new building soon, so I need to decide if I add a third HLF or go in another direction. Initially, I was excited to have these machines added to what I can offer new accounts. But I sure would like an option with much better support! The Necta Krea (Betson & Vendor's exchange) does most of the drinks the HLF does, but still suffers from the plastic automated 'look' that the stainless steel HLF gets away from. When upselling much more expensive coffee options, customer perception can be as important as the actual quality of the spresso. And unfortunately, that equipment is bullet proof and has a history of industry reliability, is not even on their radar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Hi Dave, I am located in NZ & have been doing OCS since 2002. I mainly use Necta Brand Equipment (Colibri,Brio,Kikko,Koro,Korinto ect) as this is what I am familiar with. I also Coffetek UK manufactured machines & a few other bits & pieces. I have tried to stay away from using Fresh Milk Machine in the past because of hygiene issue & the fact that fresh milk is not purchased from me some I am not making any money compared to supplying milk powder. In saying that there has been a big push here towards super-automatic machines as customers are wanting coffee similar to what they get from a Cafe. There are a lot of different super-automatics in our market. I am not sure if they are available in the USA & what sort of parts backup or technical support they would offer. Here is a list of some you could check out: http://www.franke.com/coffeesystems/us/en/home.html http://www.wmfusa.com/ http://www.carimali.com/en http://www.thermoplan.ch/e/ http://www.faema.com/eng/pr_superautomatiche.asp http://www.rex-royal.de/e/index.html It maybe worthwhile sticking it out with HLF even though they are a small operation & haven't been very helpful it maybe because their resources are stretched. One benefit I do like is that they are located so close to you. You could also ask Vendors Exchange if they are going to release the Necta Karisma into the US market as you are already happy with their parts & backup service http://www.nwglobalvending.com/products-brands/horeca/karisma%C2'> I am not familiar with the Karisma & have never used one yet so can't vouch for their reliability but I am attending a food industry show next week that will have one on display. Hope this helps.. Cheers Kiwi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Sorry.. I just read my post & realized how bad my spelling & grammar is. I should of checked it before posting. That is why I leave the e-mailing to my wife.. when she's talking to me that is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 C a n t ee n Every time you say that word, another vending company gets purchased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 http://www.wmfusa.com/ I have a little bit of experience with these. We had one set up at the shop for a while, for employee use. ( Something the company that I work for does quite a bit. Gets everyone used to how the machines work so they can talk to customers about them. ) It makes a *dang* fine cup of coffee. But it's a bit fiddley. Every cup of coffee it makes, it dumps waste water into the drip pan ( Unless you have it plumbed to a floor drain. Not too many customers actually have floor drains, so... ) It also *demands* a cleaning cycle with distressing regularity. ( And the cleaning cycle is a bit fiddley. ) Again, it makes a *dang* fine cup of coffee. We have them placed at two accounts. One of them has been there for a year and a half, and they love the heck out of it. They have a really competent person on site who takes care of the machine. We've had to do a teeny bit of work to it. ( I want to say we had to replace the inlet valve, but I'm not positive, I could be thinking of another account. ) The other account has only had the machine for a month now, and I expect to be picking it up and swapping it for a less maintenance heavy machine any day. We have a third machine, that's bounced around a few customers for demo purposes. All in all, I can only recommend them if you live very close to the account and are willing to stop by a couple times a week to just check on it. ( Or you get a perfect account like the one we have with a very savvy person there to keep the machine up and running. ) But, again, it makes a *dang* fine cup of coffee. Feral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekro Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 Hi Dave, I am located in NZ & have been doing OCS since 2002. I mainly use Necta Brand Equipment (Colibri,Brio,Kikko,Koro,Korinto ect) as this is what I am familiar with. I also Coffetek UK manufactured machines & a few other bits & pieces........ You could also ask Vendors Exchange if they are going to release the Necta Karisma into the US market as you are already happy with their parts & backup service I am not familiar with the Karisma & have never used one yet so can't vouch for their reliability but I am attending a food industry show next week that will have one on display. Hope this helps.. Cheers Kiwi Kiwi, When researching the HLF most all links were to UK and Aus., so they must be much bigger in IK and down under than in U.S. I agree and really like the Colibri. It is a workhorse with great support! I am using the powdered version of the HLF's (thank God). One reason this account wanted these was to get away from the huge amount they 'were' spending on milk for associated with tradional espresso machines they got rid of. I wonder if the Necta Karisma is the down under name for the Krea, which is Necta's new best thing in U.S. just released or releasing soon. 12 gram brew group, can make french van latte, mocha & cappucc. Necta has it down for OCS operator useabilty! I'll try to look the other brands up next week when I have time. We are leaving early bells tomorrow for a long week end. Thanks, Dave PS. Thanks for your comments over on the "Can we please get an OCS discussion forum thread". ;o) LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I wonder if the Necta Karisma is the down under name for the Krea, which is Necta's new best thing in U.S. just released or releasing soon. 12 gram brew group, can make french van latte, mocha & cappucc. Necta has it down for OCS operator useabilty! I'll try to look the other brands up next week when I have time. We are leaving early bells tomorrow for a long week end. The Karisma is Necta's latest super-automatic fresh milk machine.. http://www.nwglobalvending.com/products-brands/horeca/karisma The Krea is the replacement model for the Colibri C3 model (no cup or sugar dropper) http://www.nwglobalvending.com/products-brands/horeca/krea There is also a replacement for the Colibri C4 model called the Solista (includeds cup & sugar dropper) http://www.nwglobalvending.com/products-brands/vending/solista The Krea has had rave reviews from people I have spoken too that have been using them & I have just placed an order for one so I will let you know how it goes. Enjoy your camping trip.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I have a little bit of experience with these. We had one set up at the shop for a while, for employee use. Can you remember which model WMF it was & did it have the Plug & Clean system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I REALLY need to know what else is available for this niche. My account is adding a new building soon, so I need to decide if I add a third HLF or go in another direction. Initially, I was excited to have these machines added to what I can offer new accounts. But I sure would like an option with much better support! The Necta Krea (Betson & Vendor's exchange) does most of the drinks the HLF does, but still suffers from the plastic automated 'look' that the stainless steel HLF gets away from. When upselling much more expensive coffee options, customer perception can be as important as the actual quality of the spresso. And unfortunately, that equipment is bullet proof and has a history of industry reliability, is not even on their radar. Hi Dave, I spent the other day at the Hospitality Expo I was telling you about. They had quite a few of the latest super-automatic machines on display but didn't have the HLF unfortunately. They did have the Necta Karisma, Schaerer Vito, Thermoplan (Black & White) & WMF range of equipment on display. I would have to say that I was most impressed with the Thermoplan (Black & White) & it would be my pick of the bunch but at the high price range they were giving me.. CTM Model NZ$13K - CTMC Model NZ$17K would price them out of most peoples reach. I was a bit disappointed with the Karisma but that maybe because the company that were showing it had only just received it a couple of days prior to the show starting so had not had time to fine tune it. At around NZ$10K it is a lot cheaper than the Thermoplan but still up there on price. Do you mind me asking how much are you paying for an HLF? I just want to see what sort of price range you are looking at when it comes to super-automatics.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Can you remember which model WMF it was & did it have the Plug & Clean system? WMF 1400 ( http://www.wmfusa.com/ ) And I don't see a reference to a Plug & Clean system on the fact sheet there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
way2mmm Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hello, I know that Fuji Electric has developed a cup vending machine which automatically puts a lid within the machine but I am not sure why similar design is not used by vending machine manufacturers. Could someone please advise where I can find a manufacturer offering Bean to Cup machine which incorporates an automatic lidding mechanism. Thank you for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orsd Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Anything preventing the customer form lidding with provided lids themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekro Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 Hello, I know that Fuji Electric has developed a cup vending machine which automatically puts a lid within the machine but I am not sure why similar design is not used by vending machine manufacturers. Could someone please advise where I can find a manufacturer offering Bean to Cup machine which incorporates an automatic lidding mechanism. Thank you for your help! Are Fuji's machines putting lids on cold drinks or hot drinks? I never did operate the old regular coffee vending machines (pre espresso era ;o), but I heard that cup jams were a sore spot. I cannot imagine how a machine could reliably and securely install a lid on a cup of coffee. I would imagine it would be a lawsuit waiting to happen if the customer/employee/user had an expectation that the lid would be on securely for their safety. Much better IMHO to have user install their own lid. Spill a cold soda on your hand and you are irritated. Spill a 165 degree Far. coffee on your hand and you'll scream. my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
way2mmm Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Thank you for your comments. The machine is putting lids on both hot and cold drinks. In fact, this cappng mechanism is used by one of the modern Bean to Cup machine producing an excellent espresso but the company refuses to supply it for NA market. I think that I need to find a good engineer which is extremely difficult today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekro Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Can you say what make and model of espresso machine this is? If NA means North American market, I would say because our culture tends to be overly litigious. Like sueing Mac Donalds because you spilled your coffee on yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orsd Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Like sueing Mac Donalds because you spilled your coffee on yourself.I'm not saying that that lady was 100 right but you have to consider the fact that the coffee was 190 degrees and left her with (I think) third degree burns on her crotch which required surgeryTo put 190 degrees in perspective burgers are considered cooked at 165 degrees Not to mention the fact that mc dees had hundreds of other complaints about the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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