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For the refrigeration experts - USI FF2000


loach33

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I have an FF2000 - it's a satellite and the kind that you can make cold food or frozen.  I have it set on frozen.  I realize this is not a machine that likes the outdoors so I'm sure at least part of the problem lies there.

 

But, it is zero degrees here.  This machine sits on a loading dock where they keep the door closed this time of year most of the time.  There is an overhead heater there in that area.  I would say that the temp in that area is around 45-50 right now.

 

I got a call that the machine is not freezing properly.  The sensors say it is 26 degrees when it should be about 14 below to 22 below in there.  One guy puts his water in the bottom to keep it cold.  He said he pulled it out today and its thawed out.  Usually its a frozen rock.  So he called.

 

This same thing happened last year at one time.  It was a temporary thing.  I reset it and all was good again.  My guy here said that sometimes that can happen when the outside air is too cold.  It fouls up the machine knowing when to kick on, etc.  Those weren't exact words but only as I remember it.

 

So that's why I'm writing this out to see if the guys that know refrigeration can give me an idea on how this should run and if in fact - being too cold could cause the machine's compressor not to kick on.

 

This machine has a new compressor put in it only about 3 months ago.

 

And yes, I have a plan to get this machine off this dock and into a normal climate.  But for now I'm wondering why it would do that - if there's any thoughts.

 

Thanks

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One thing I do know is that refrigeration depends entirely on ambient temperature. If the ambient air is too cold, refrigeration lines can freeze up, preventing air flow and possibly causing the compressor to overheat and shut off. It may sound silly but it is a possibility.

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Ambient temps won't affect the cooling. In fact colder temps make it easier on the refrigeration. The evaporator van runs all the time when door is closed and if it fails the evaporator will freeze up. The fan and glass heat will add enough heat to keep the compressor cycling.. At very low temps the humidity can be very high and a leaking door seal (common to USI) could cause the evaporator to freeze up.when that happens temps inside will rise. Make sure the door seal is sealing, evaporator fan running and not froze up. If all 3 are good then you may have a leak from the new compressor install. 

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Turns out the fan was not running.  Seems to be a bad relay.  So, the compressor was running but the fan wouldn't circulate the air.  I guess had it gone on for a couple days the evaporator would have froze up.....correct?

 

Being that its winter the machine inside was still cool.  I'm sure in the summer it would have been 50 or so inside.

 

Talked to the owner.  Machine is being moved to another of my locations where they are asking for a sandwich machine.  Going to swap for that snack machine.  Probably is good it happened.  Gets me to just make the switch instead of thinking about it.

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Did you run relay test on fan motor? Also when switching to default cold food the fan motor in my case wouldn't come on. After talking to USI checking everything still couldn't get it to work. Yea they called me back a bit later and we went through setup again and found that sensor 4 has to be on. Default settings turn it off. Turn it on and set the temp I believe -30 degrees. 

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Ambient temps won't affect the cooling. In fact colder temps make it easier on the refrigeration. The evaporator van runs all the time when door is closed and if it fails the evaporator will freeze up. The fan and glass heat will add enough heat to keep the compressor cycling.. At very low temps the humidity can be very high and a leaking door seal (common to USI) could cause the evaporator to freeze up.when that happens temps inside will rise. Make sure the door seal is sealing, evaporator fan running and not froze up. If all 3 are good then you may have a leak from the new compressor install. 

 

Then why do air conditioners freeze up?!?

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When our outdoor temp gets near zero for any extended time, the freezer side of our spare refrigerator that is in our garage, does not work as it should. The rest of the time it is fine.ambient temps do make a difference, I just can't explain how.

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Then why do air conditioners freeze up?!?

 

Entirely different animal. There are many reasons air conditioners freeze up. Not enough air flow is the biggest. A freezer sitting in a cold garage won't even cycle if its cold enough. Because there isn't a fan motor in most so there isn't any heat being add to the box.

 

The evaporators soul purpose is to remove heat from one space to another, Heat is attracted to cold so the evaporator absorbs the heat and sends it to the the compressor where it is compressed to a high pressure gas that raises it temperature above ambient temperature. Then it  goes to condenser where it is dissipated to a space that has a lower temperature.  

 

The USI cold food has heated glass, evaporator fan and lights that are continually adding heat to the inside of the box. If all them where disconnected the box would stay at ambient temps. So sitting on a dock at -12 degrees the compressor would never run if the temp setting was at -5.

 

If it were not for the evaporator fan motor most pop machines would freeze up in the winter.    

 

 

Heat pump uses the condenser as the evaporator 

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Then why do air conditioners freeze up?!?

 

If you are talking about a window ac then yes they will freeze up at night when the temps drop down. The reason in a lot of cases is because people run them on high. When it is hot it won't matter but at night temps fall and the ac still won't cycle. The unit has to cycle to allow condensation time to drip off evaporator. AC's are designed to run evaporator temps higher than vending machines. Temps are usually 20 to 30 degrees below ambient temp. Ambient being on the evaporator side. So at night when the AC don't have to work as hard and is on high the area around the AC gets pretty cold and if it is on high the evaporator is below freezing and ice starts to build up. It is more complicated than this but vending and AC air conditioners are like comparing apples to oranges.

 

A refrigerator is designed for indoor temps. When you get outside the design then they will act funny. AC's are designed to operate also at certain temps.

 

So ambient temps do effect the out come. But in the case of a frozen food machine or a pop machine it only has a minimal effect because you are adding a outside source of heat. Like a evaporator fan motor, heated glass, lights etc to the inside of box.    

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You can have problems when the compressor becomes the coldest part in the refrigeration system. When the compressor cycles off liquid refrigerant will always migrate to the coldest point in the system. If that point is the compressor it is possible that liquid will be pulled into the cylinder when the compressor tries to start it will not be able to compress a liquid. If you are lucky the motor stalls and the overload turns off the power to the motor. It is also possible the piston will fail and destroy the compressor.

 

Outdoor units have heaters to protect the compressor. Sometimes the heater is the motor winding itself in that when the unit is off some power is allowed to flow thru the motor not enough to turn the motor but enough to keep it warm.

 

Lotch33 did you say the bad relay was for the evaporator fan or the condenser fan?

 

 

Walta

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So it all comes back to fan circulation

 

Yes........ Never fails the first thing a lot of technicians want to do is shoot freon in before checking air flow. You have to have both condenser air flow and evaporator air flow. It is a balanced system.  Like Walta mentioned a compressor can not compress liquid only gas.Liquid will lock up the compressor and destroy it. So over charging a system will slug a compressor.    

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I did run a relay test on that fan.  It clicked like it was trying to come on but it would not.  I should get that replacement tomorrow.   Also, moving that to an indoor location should really help.  The summers where it would sit in more or less 90 degree temps while trying to stay below zero inside was just a bit tough on it.

 

Now I do have a similar USI machine at a factory.  I have that one set for just refrigerated food.  It is not in a breakroom and I know come summer it will be hot in there.  But they do get a lot of airflow moving through there.  Still it will be hot.  It should work ok though, right?  It's not an outdoor machine.

 

I was looking at an AMS combo earlier today because really they could use a bigger machine.  Is the AMS VCF combo rated for outdoor?  If so, maybe I would be smart to go that route

 

Relay was the Evap fan I believe.  At the top of the machine is the fan sitting in front of the evaporator.  Compressor would kick on but the inside was not cooling enough.  I guess because the fan would not circulate that air

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There are three relays in the USI FF2000. Relay 1 is for the compressor, relay 2 is for the evap fan and relay 3 is for the defrost heater.

As to the AMS VCF, it isn't outdoor rated unless it's one of the "Outsider" models with security devices and an extra sheet of glass. The cooling is the same in both so if you have a sheltered location where the machine won't get wet then you'll be able to use it. Check with AMS for the maximum ambient temp and humidity it can function in. I think it will work much better than the FF2000 due to it's more robust cooling system. Just make sure the health control works properly.

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AMS is 100 Degrees don't know what the humidity is. Sensit 1's were horrible above 100 degrees. I had customers who had machine shops that were 120+ degrees in the summer and in the afternoon they would set the health safety. We ended up putting box fans behind them to get the heat away and that did help. The problem went away after they put a sensit 3 in its place. I believe the newer cooling units are more efficient.. Had to do this at about 5 locations. Same problem with National 430 and 431's.

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The VCF or VCB machines have larger 1/2 HP compressors in them so they will work better in warmer locations.  The chilled snack machines have smaller 1/3 HP units in them.

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The VCF or VCB machines have larger 1/2 HP compressors in them so they will work better in warmer locations.  The chilled snack machines have smaller 1/3 HP units in them.

 

Correct..... They were 1/2 hp ........ Even had the dog house all taped off to make sure they weren't leaking air into the cabinet. .

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Is a Sensit 3 the same thing as a VCF?  Just googled it and that looks to be the case?   I assume this is the best bet for a high volume combo type machine?   They want bottles of all shapes (OJ, Tea, Red Bull, Mountain Dew, etc) and also cans.  Plus snacks

 

This location with a USI combo chiller (about 30 selections - 6 deep for bottles) does about $40/day out of this machine but it's almost empty after 2 days.  I'm pretty confident with the right products and more capacity it could do $50-$60/ day.

 

So, my service cycle has to be 2 to 2.5 days more or less because of that machine.  It looks like the AMS type would be almost twice as big.  I assume they can take the USA tech eport?  MDB and all that?   

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Is a Sensit 3 the same thing as a VCF?  Just googled it and that looks to be the case?   I assume this is the best bet for a high volume combo type machine?   They want bottles of all shapes (OJ, Tea, Red Bull, Mountain Dew, etc) and also cans.  Plus snacks

 

This location with a USI combo chiller (about 30 selections - 6 deep for bottles) does about $40/day out of this machine but it's almost empty after 2 days.  I'm pretty confident with the right products and more capacity it could do $50-$60/ day.

 

So, my service cycle has to be 2 to 2.5 days more or less because of that machine.  It looks like the AMS type would be almost twice as big.  I assume they can take the USA tech eport?  MDB and all that?   

Loach, that's too good of an account for any combo.  Even a Dixie 276E paired with a Slim Gem 3 wide would get you to a once a week schedule and you could slide them in to a space 4' wide.  Like Walta says, you can't stop your truck for less than a hundred dollars.  I'm thinking this account might even do a grand a month with the right capacity in there.  Are they that tight on space?

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The biggest drawback with the AMS or USI glass front combos is the low capacity of each shelf when using bottles. There are higher capacity spirals for cans but if you really need more capacity then you should find a DN Entray machine. It's a Bevmax with snack shelves in the top 3 positions. That gives you 2 - 9 selection shelves that can hold between 6 to 9 products each. You can also convert a regular Bevmax to an Entray machine with snack shelves, an EPROM, new harness and then a new snack delivery bin.

The biggest drawback with the AMS or USI glass front combos is the low capacity of each shelf when using bottles. There are higher capacity spirals for cans but if you really need more capacity then you should find a DN Entray machine. It's a Bevmax with snack shelves in the top 3 positions. That gives you 2 - 9 selection shelves that can hold between 6 to 9 products each. You can also convert a regular Bevmax to an Entray machine with new shelves, EPROM and harness, and a new delivery bin with snack sensor.

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The biggest drawback with the AMS or USI glass front combos is the low capacity of each shelf when using bottles. There are higher capacity spirals for cans but if you really need more capacity then you should find a DN Entray machine. It's a Bevmax with snack shelves in the top 3 positions. That gives you 2 - 9 selection shelves that can hold between 6 to 9 products each. You can also convert a regular Bevmax to an Entray machine with snack shelves, an EPROM, new harness and then a new snack delivery bin.

The biggest drawback with the AMS or USI glass front combos is the low capacity of each shelf when using bottles. There are higher capacity spirals for cans but if you really need more capacity then you should find a DN Entray machine. It's a Bevmax with snack shelves in the top 3 positions. That gives you 2 - 9 selection shelves that can hold between 6 to 9 products each. You can also convert a regular Bevmax to an Entray machine with new shelves, EPROM and harness, and a new delivery bin with snack sensor.

 

 

I have heard of them but never saw one. 

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Loach, that's too good of an account for any combo.  Even a Dixie 276E paired with a Slim Gem 3 wide would get you to a once a week schedule and you could slide them in to a space 4' wide.  Like Walta says, you can't stop your truck for less than a hundred dollars.  I'm thinking this account might even do a grand a month with the right capacity in there.  Are they that tight on space?

Moon dog - I actually have that machine on the floor.  In the breakroom is a pop, snack and a cold food.  Then another drink machine elsewhere

 

Every other machine could go 3-4 days.  If I could get this machine to match that.....I'd like to go twice a week.  It's a $750 - $800/ week stop.   Right now I go three times.

 

All I need is a bit more capacity in this one spot.  If this machine runs out they still have the breakroom which is 200 feet away.  But, if this machine doesn't run out of product they'll buy more.  I just don't want to over do it out there to where the breakroom food doesn't get hit much.   Might not be something to worry about, but that's what I'm thinking.  Basically a machine that would hold about $225 worth of product should do the trick.  That AMS machine, even though it only goes 6 deep may be the ticket.  I'll have to look more into it.  

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Moon dog - I actually have that machine on the floor.  In the breakroom is a pop, snack and a cold food.  Then another drink machine elsewhere

 

Every other machine could go 3-4 days.  If I could get this machine to match that.....I'd like to go twice a week.  It's a $750 - $800/ week stop.   Right now I go three times.

 

All I need is a bit more capacity in this one spot.  If this machine runs out they still have the breakroom which is 200 feet away.  But, if this machine doesn't run out of product they'll buy more.  I just don't want to over do it out there to where the breakroom food doesn't get hit much.   Might not be something to worry about, but that's what I'm thinking.  Basically a machine that would hold about $225 worth of product should do the trick.  That AMS machine, even though it only goes 6 deep may be the ticket.  I'll have to look more into it.  

Okay, if it's a satellite machine then get the largest one you can find.  I have found that it's true that additional capacity in one place tends to sap the sales in the adjacent machines - you can get to the point where you're "eating your young" with too much equipment.

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This location with a USI combo chiller (about 30 selections - 6 deep for bottles) 

Which model USI combo do you have? I am guessing by your description that it maybe a VT/ST3000?

 

What is running out first that causes you to fill it every 2 days... bottles... cans... chips?

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Model 3521.  Single spiral chiller.  I put 16.9 oz bottles in there along with crackers, pastries, a few chips, snickers, nuts, OJ, Monster...... It has about 30 selections if I remember right...bottles go 6 deep.

 

When sales hit about $90 the machine is real close to empty.  I have four rows of Mountain Dew and those will be gone.  Everything else is one row.  I guess I'd like to have a standalone cold machine that will be OK sittng in the warm weather (not outdoors) that has maybe 50% more capacity.

 

If the AMS machine does that then great.  I have mostly USI stuff now. 

 

I know that adding capacity will affect the other machines. It has to.  But, getting there and seeing an almost empty machine each time - I just think in the long run those guys will get tired of seeing that and think I should be there more often.  

 

And this is in the winter.  I do expect sales to pick up in the summer on drinks.  If I need six rows of Mountain Dew out there then I'll be hurting on other selections.

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