The best bet for a used cold food/ sandwich machine

[loach33]

I have a Rowe 548 machine.  Latest issue is it wasn't cooling as of this morning.  Add this to some other issues.  So, I'm at the point where maybe it's time to just get rid of it and replace it with something else - used though....not going to invest in new as it would be years before I'd get my money back.

 

The fact that Rowe is no longer around, parts are scarce, etc makes me pursue this path.  But, what brand or model of machine should I be looking for?  It would be going into a place of about 75 employees.

 

What I like about the Rowe carousel is that it allows me to put bottles and anything else in there besides sandwiches so it would be nice if the new machine offered that too.

 

Any ideas?   I'm in Indiana.  Thanks

[Vendors Tech]

Get a National 431 or 432.  Those are some of the best.  For a frozen, the AP 320 has always been a favorite of mine.  But with the Nationals, all the parts are still available, most people know how to work on them, they are reliable and long lasting.  You could even go back farther in models and get a 430.  Those are ok too, but I would get a 431 or 432 if you can find one of those first.  Go through them with a fine tooth comb before you buy them though.  If you buy a "used working" machine, there are all kinds of problems that could exist and you'd never know about them till 7 days later.  Cold food machines can be tricky unless you know your way around their quirks and sometimes frustrating features, like the health control sensor.

[loach33]

Just talked to my local guy that got me set up in this years ago.  I've owned primarily USI machines.  So, he has a couple year old "Chill Center" 27 selection.  $3000.    What I don't like is the coil instead of carousel.   What I do like is I'd be familiar with it's workings because it's a USI.  What I don';t like is the price.  Was hoping to get out at $2000 or less.  

 

I found one National 431 in NY for $3100.  Is this the going rate for Nationals....$3000 or so?   If that's the case then maybe this USI would do. 

 

Whatever happens, I'll have to decide probably by Wednesday because the current machine is shut down.  If the new part doesn't get it going Wednesday morning then I'm going to have to tell them a new machine is on the way.  At least the word "new" will tide them over.

[AZVendor]

If you like the Rowe 548 and are comfortable with what it can do and how it works, why not just repair the cooling unit?  The worst case is around $700 - $800 for a new compressor.  Just because it isn't cooling doesn't tell us enough as to what the problem could be.  You might simply have a clogged condensor or vent screen.  You might be low on freon.  You might have a burned wire or a faulty refrigeration relay.  You might have a bad temp sensor.  Don't just do away with the machine until you have at lease tried to get it fixed.

 

Do you have a good vending refrigeration tech in your area?  I'm sure you have a trusted repair tech since you have been in the business for a few years.  Let them take a look at it before you spend more money on an unknown machine.

[Vendors Tech]

I would not buy USI, unless you are very familiar with them. I am constantly repairing USI refrigerated machines out here, they are plagued with mechanical and electrical issues. $3100 is very high for a National 431 unless it has been refurbished to the 10th power. We sell them occasionally, the highest we've ever charged for one is $1995 completely refurbished. I would check companies like Vendors Exchange, A & M Equipment Sales, Drop's Vending, Smitty's Vending, and maybe eBay. Those are just a few I thought of off the top of my head. Most if not all of those will be below $3000 easy.

[loach33]

If you like the Rowe 548 and are comfortable with what it can do and how it works, why not just repair the cooling unit?  The worst case is around $700 - $800 for a new compressor.  Just because it isn't cooling doesn't tell us enough as to what the problem could be.  You might simply have a clogged condensor or vent screen.  You might be low on freon.  You might have a burned wire or a faulty refrigeration relay.  You might have a bad temp sensor.  Don't just do away with the machine until you have at lease tried to get it fixed.

 

Do you have a good vending refrigeration tech in your area?  I'm sure you have a trusted repair tech since you have been in the business for a few years.  Let them take a look at it before you spend more money on an unknown machine.

I like the machine when it works.  The thing is I spent $700 last year on a new compressor.  I just pulled it out about 6 weeks ago to completely clean out the dirt.   I ordered the temp sensor thinking that's the problem.  We'll see tomorrow when I put it in. 

 

This is just one of those times when it's been down for various things over the last year.  Nothing too major.  I get over there and fix it.  But, in the location's mind....it's one of those perceived "this thing is always down".  Not real, perceived.

 

My refrigeration guy usually does my work after he gets off his job at Pepsi.  Problem is this location closes at 3:30.  He can't help me here.  The last guy I called when my guy couldn't make it annoyed me so much that I won't call him again.  I'm going to look around today for someone else that can at least check the freon.

 

Financially, I'm sure it's smart to fix it.  The fear is it's fixed, and something else happens in a couple weeks or so and here we are again.  Kind of like when you tire from a car.  There's a feeling that maybe a newer one will be better. 

[moondog]

Perception is the key issue in my mind - sure you can fix it again, but the machine has a bad rep at this point.  I've noticed sales dips on machines where I've only changed out the validator.  People stop using the machine because they think it won't work and it can take several days for word to get around that the machine is working again.

 

I don't use cold food machines as I've been under the impression that they're not profitable.  Seventy five people is a decent sized account but does it really justify the cold food machine?

[Walta]

Anything you buy used is unlikely to be more reliable than a 548.

 

My customers like the AMS food machine as a new equipment option.

 

 

AMS will vend bottles.

 

You should look through the screen and see if the evaporator is frozen over

 

 

It is tuff to turn a profit with food but sometime you have to do it to get in the door.

 

 

Walta

[loach33]

Yeah, no doubt these are not money maker machines.  Just a necessity to be able to sell the drinks and snacks.  You just hope to break even, so repairs are killers.

 

Same thing for coffee.  I had one and vowed never again.  Had to get one to get into another account.  Grudingly did it with a bad feeling.  Sure enough I left 8 months later and sold the machine for a loss.  Never, ever, ever again.

 

Evaporator was not frozen, not a bit.  These are the times when I wish I had one guy on staff that did all the maintenance.  Just figure it out and get it done.  I hate dealing with this stuff.

 

I've checked multiple sites on the National 431.  All of them are $2600 - 3500 and that's without shipping.  I'll look for this AMS you mentioned. 

[moondog]

CL in Los Angeles has a 430 listed for $1,300 refurbished - I'd hate to think what the shipping would be to Indiana.

[AZVendor]

Loach, 

 

Any older machine you buy used will have just as much of a chance of having problems as this 548 does.  The  Nat 431 is from the same era as the 548, the Nat 430 is from the same era as the earlier Rowe 448. 

 

You might be approaching this from the wrong angle.  Why did you order a temp sensor?  What symptom led you there?  With the doors closed, do you get an accurate reading of the temperature in the cabinet?  You don't want to just throw parts at it hoping to fix it.  If the temp sensor is bad, you will get very erroneous temperature readings.

 

I understand your frustration with this machine, but you are in vending where anything and everything can go wrong.  You must have patience and methodically do some troubleshooting:

 

What did you specifically do when pulling and cleaning the unit?  Did you blow compressed air through the condenser to clean it (most important)?  Did you clean the back cabinet screen?

 

Use a voltmeter and verify that you have more than 105V coming out of the wall socket.  Inspect the machine power plug for burned or pitted connections.

 

Did/do you get any errors when opening the coin door?  Post those here.

 

If you press the door interlock at the lower left of the cabinet (the one with the metal spring bracket on it) does the evaporator fan in the cabinet come on immediately? 

 

If you hold this switch in for a few minutes (3 to 5) what do you hear the cooling unit do - compressor and fan come on together, fan only, compressor only?  If compressor only, your condenser fan is bad.  If fan only, your compressor is bad.  If both together, you are probably low on freon.

 

If compressor and fan do not turn on, turn off the machine and drop the power supply down and inspect the 2 wires going to the compressor that enable it.  Are they burned or discolored?  Separate the connector between the power supply and compressor to inspect the pins. 

 

Is the cooling unit fully plugged in on the left cabinet wall?  Remove the plug and inspect the spade connectors and the socket for burning and pitting. 

 

Follow the two enable lines from the compressor back to the relay on the power supply.  Is the relay burned or damaged?  What is the part number of your power supply?  Post a photo of the relay so we know which one you have.  If you have the original flat 548 relay, it is prone to failure (I'd be surprised if it lasted this long).

 

With the power supply down and being very careful, turn power on and make sure all the proper LEDs are lit.  The only ones that should be off are "Line Polarity Reversed" and "Refrig Relay".  Press in the door interlock again and wait for the relay LED to come on (again 3 to 5 mins).  If it does not come on then your relay may be bad or your power supply may be bad.

 

To bypass the relay and power supply, you can short the two enable wires together, then power the machine up and close the door.  Wait through the delay to see if the cooling unit starts.  If this is the only way to get it to work, then your problem is the relay or power supply.  You can hardwire a regular cold control from a Rowe 448 into the enable line and permanently bypass the relay if needed.

[loach33]

AZ.  I really appreciate the time you put into that post.  I printed it for reference.

 

I had an issue where the machine would lock up at random times....sometimes 2 weeks would pass.  Sometimes a few months.  This was going on for close to a year.  So, I posted on here about that issue and at that time I checked the voltage and the plug, etc.  Everything seemed to be fine.   Since that post about 6 weeks ago it had no troubles with that problem.

 

At that same time I decided to pull the unit out for cleaning just to cover all my bases and it's a dirty place so it probably needed it.  It really wasn't that dirty at all but I blew out everything with air...the fan, the screens, everything around it.  Put it all back together and no issues until this one.

 

Monday morning got the call that the machine was dark.  This was after the 4 day weekend.  I assumed it was that lock up deal again.  It wasn't.  Message said the health timer expired.  Before opening the main door I looked at the sandwiches with cheese.  They looked OK - nothing melted all over.  Drinks  had a little condensation but nothing much.  Looked fairly normal in there.  So, I thought maybe over the weekend it just went over the temp for a couple minutes and it put itself out of service and a simple reset was needed.

 

So I opened the main door and felt the drinks, etc.  Things still seemed to be pretty cold....basically like you'd feel something in your refrigerator.  I hit the service switch a few times.  Closed the main door and checked the temperature reading from the display.  It said 63.  No way was it 63 in there.  I had the door open maybe 30 seconds.  I check the temp all the time when I service, before and after and again before I leave.  So, I know that after servicing for even 5 minutes the temp in there is usually saying 60 or so before it starts to cool again.  And it cools quick.  No issues with waiting for it.   It's down to 42 or so in under 5 minutes.

 

So, I thought well the temp probe has to be wrong.  I opened it up again and looked at it - plugged in fine.  I checked the evaporator for ice.  No ice at all.  The compressor seemed to be running.  The fan kicks on immediately when I close the door.

 

So, I closed it up and let it run while I went out and ordered a temp sensor.

 

I went back there about 2 hours later.  The temp said 70 now and items inside were definitely warmer.  So, now I thought "Well, maybe it wasn't the sensor after all".  But, it's ordered and it arrives at my door soon.

 

So, I called my refrig guy and like I said he has issues with getting there around his job.

 

So, tomorrow morning I will put the new sensor on it and fire it up.  I'll listen for the compressor, fan, etc.  and see if it starts cooling.  If not, I bet it's low on freon.  Which brings up a possible leak since I had zero issues with this cooling up to now.

 

I'll know more Wednesday morning.

[AZVendor]

Yes, I remember the issues you had with lockups before. 

 

The 63 degree reading was probably correct since you had condensation on some bottles, it just felt colder.  If you had tried a beverage you would have known it was warmer than you thought. 

 

Your compressor might be short cycling or overheating and turning off for awhile.  Even though you blew everything out, you should check for good airflow out the back of the machine to know if the condenser fan is running strong.  A slower fan speed will not cool the freon down enough and causes the compressor overload to trip.  Then after the compressor cools down it restarts but the slow fan will cause the overload to trip shortly after.  Basically what you get then is short bursts of cooling and long periods where the compressor is off.  Just enough to maintain a 60+ temp but not down to 35 deg like it should be.  Low freon will normally manifest itself as ice on your evaporator.  I think you might have an airflow problem or internal compressor problem.  Is this location much warmer now that summer is here or did you say it's in a air conditioned space?  Did they shut the air off over the long weekend?  This machine does not like hot environments.

[loach33]

Well, I was thinking that maybe they did shut off the air or turn it up over the weekend.  I'll ask that question tomorrow.  My hope is that after firing it up again it cools normally after a little "rest" the past 36 hours.  You know, hoping I get lucky.

 

Back to that USI Chill Center..  It's 2 years old.  That's what has me intrigued and inching toward that if in fact this machine doesn't want to work.   In 16 years of doing this and 16 machines the only real problems I've had are with cold food machines.  So one that's 2 years old to replace one that's about 18 years old is a factor.  Plus I know who I'm dealing with vs. buying off craigslist, etc  (Minus bill acceptors, coin acceptors).  

 

I'd rather get this running though.