abcoffee Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Hey guys, just wanted to pick your brains for a minute. I usually use either a pod machine or a crane cafe' 7 in my industrial accounts for coffee, due to their ease of instalation and because they are cheap to purchase and simple to fix. This has allways worked for me but recently a new and very good account has requested that I install an inclosed vendor ( long story! ) I know that most of the cranes ( 637 and up ) use the same basic parts as the system 7 ( valves, brew head ect ) and I am familar with those machines. I don't think I can afford a MDB machine right now, but I have noticed alot of AP machines on the market for cheap.... maby I can get a newer AP for the price of an older crane.... If you were in my shoes what would you look for or avoid?? I personally am not a huge fan of crane ( for their service dept ) , but they are generally more common and seem to use similar parts for many years... and i already have at least 3X system 7 parts machines.... any input??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Since you are familiar with Crane Cafe 7's you could consider a Crane full size coffee. I'm not sure how many parts are shared but the valves should be. The AP machines are very nice and if you want a good dependable but low cost machine look for a 213 with dual cup. Whether a machine has MDB or not doesn't matter at all in the operation or cost of the machine, unless you are equating an MDB coffee machine with it being a very late model - which you are right about. ChrisinBC is very high on the Crane machines and he will probably chime in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcoffee Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 Here are 2 im looking at, both are about $800 AP 223G ( scroll through the pics to see ) http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-other-Vending-machines-for-sale-W0QQAdIdZ529762588 and Crane 637 http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-business-industrial-637-Crane-coffee-machine-W0QQAdIdZ484836462 any opinions??? Oh and BTW thanks AZVendor for your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 The AP 223G means it is a grinder machine which is probably what you want, unless you prefer pre-ground coffee. I think the 203FG is pre-ground, in which case it should be called a 203LG, but I would pass on the 203 due to its age and the fact that it is likely single cup. The AP223 was built by AP just prior to the Crane purchase of AP, just to show you the age of it. There were a couple of issues with them originally, one of which was that the main power supply needed to be replaced with an updated one. The machine itself is a very nice, though complicated one, which requires recipes be set up for every drink you offer, and this machine can offer up to something like 27 different recipes. It is dual cup and I believe it will go to 16 or 18 oz cups. The 637 offered is a bean grinder and dual cup, and isn't very old either. The ad is confusing because the two photos are of two seperate machines, though the two machine look like they are the same model. Again, it's a choice you need to make between AP and National. Both companies are one now, so I don't think the AP tech support is different anymore from National tech support. Based on the people I speak to at AP, they're all new to AP. If you like AP equipment and run some of their stuff I would go with the 223. It is definitely a sharper looking machine. Since it's a wet machine, be prepared for some work to get it ready, but you probably already know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcoffee Posted October 20, 2013 Author Share Posted October 20, 2013 I agree the AP is newer and looks much better. I have learned over the past 7 years I have beeen doing this, it is allways good to use as much of the same type of equipment as possible. I know that there are more 637's out there for cheap.... but maby that is not a good thing.... I know that my old system 7's are starting to show their age. On the other hand I bought a new crane genesis 5 years ago, and I had TONS of probelms with that machine.... so bad that it took the crane dealer in toronto 7 months to sort it out....I ended up selling it.... so sometimes new and high tech is not a good thing.... would a ap 223 be hard to descale and or replace/rebuild the valves??? I find that valves, switches and the odd brewer repair are the most common in my system 7's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 The AP is pretty easy to work on, though the valves are all different from National valves so you will need different parts. You can descale the tank just as easily as on a National. Before buying it try to find out what updates were done to it, especially the power supply update. If needed you can ask AP what to look for. This way you will know in advance if you need to update the machine before using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris in bc Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I see a vendor from Toronto! The 637 is a good machine. The grinder is pretty noisy and may not be suitable for an office. But, you can always remove the grinder part and just use loose ground coffee-I recommend Club Coffee-Guatemalan dark! I still have a system 7-it works just fine. Tech support is great from crane....you can call Sylvain Langlois Voice Mail: 514-339-1334 Cell: 514-824-7376 he is a crane service engineer who knows the 637 very well.In fact most service engineers in the USA are all experts on 637 machines. I have one AP223g that I have never used. It will be in service as soon as I ship it too the cool guy in AZ for a refurb! I always use a H4 everpure filter. This filter will help with scale and provide clean water for your coffee machine. I do not know if crane will be making parts for their old Automatic Products branded coffee machine anymore-so be warned! Crane's focus seems to be manufacturing machines with card swipers and remote accesss visibility. I would place a black tuff front kit on the 637, send the boards to Vendors exchange for repairs and updates, dishwash all the hoppers, flush the tank out a few times, change the water filter and test the crap out of it. Make sure you know the machine well before you deliver it. The 637 is a simple to use machine. I had one at a HIGH volume account for 6 years and remember only changing out seals! If you do buy a 637 coffee machine only use-non oily coffee. Club brand coffee is good! The reason I write and speak highly about the 637 machines is because I am experienced with them! I am looking forward to getting my AP 223 refurbished so I can grind Starbucks beans ( a very oily bean) without having the grinder get plugged up with grinds. The 637 has a very big problem with oily coffee-it plugs up the grinder! SO think about this! I know Brokenhouse ( dealer) in Toronto repairs AP coffee machines so this is a bonus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcoffee Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 Thanks Chris for your input and info! This account has been awesome for snack and pop... just this month I had to empty the machines halfway through the month becase there was no room left in the coin boxes! So I want to keep them happy! An other idea I have thought about is a Necta Brio. I know a guy who retired from vending and has a Necta Brio (3?) fully inclosed machine with cup dispencer for only $800..... The Crane and AP's are probably easy to work on... but im thinking this will give a better cup of coffee.... and at $800 is a good deal. Any experience with these machines guys??? I have a Genesis and had nothing but trouble.... I hope these are a little better.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcoffee Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 The machine i'm talking about is actually a Necta Brio 250.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 For the same $800 you will be better off with a full size machine like either of the ones you have considered. The Brio is limited to coffee, cream, sugar, chocolate and another soluble drink, such as French Vanilla. The cup dispenser is only one size and I believe 8.25 oz cups are the largest you can vend from the Brio. The grinder can be finicky, especially if you have oily beans. The Brio is an older machine as it's no longer produced. I would still opt for the full size machine as you will have more selections and two cup sizes available, as well as the ability to take currency with it - the Brio can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris in bc Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Do not buy a Brio Necta 250-parts are hard to come by! Get a crane and enjoy it. There is still lots of parts, tech support as I mentioned above......it is a wise choice! I will upload a video of mine, new menu board, and a totally different look! They are cheap to run, a 637 is as simple as it gets-all metal brewer, filter paper and a basic brew barrel. I use Club coffee from vending products of Canada. I have French vanilla, swiss mocha, irish cream, lightner and sugar along with 8 and 12 oz cups! Problem free machines! If you really want to impress the customers use the Cafection brand coffee brewers made in Quebec. I use these are great! Try leasing! Here ya go with cafection's website! http://www.cafection.com/images/brochure/gourmet_feuillet_eng_coffee_avalon_cafection.pdf- I think my lease rate was $125 bucks a month. Cups go on the side, along with sugar! You can also buy a sugar/lightner dispenser; http://www.newcocoffee.com/family-cc.htm This will really WOW the customer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcoffee Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 Thanks again chris! It actually NEEDS to be fully inclosed. I don't offer comissions, but at this account I am on my coffee machine, i give em whats left over after the cost of materials ( products are market up quite well ). I still make a decent markup on coffee and they get some funds for the employee fund. Problem is the workers are taking the cups that are out next to my pod machine, and either using them on the water cooler next to it, or bringing in instant coffee and with a microwave making a coffee, plus they are stealing cups creamers, sugar ect .... and at the end of the month there is no money left for the the employee fund. So it has to been fully inclosed... no outside supplys at all. It's a shame really... they love the machine that is in there now and it gives great coffee. 10 coffee's, 10 tea's, Hot chocolate and even Chicken Soup! We have left signs up telling the workers not to steal cups creamers ect, because it takes money out of the employee fund.... but they dont care... so they will have to have an enclosed machine from now on. Ya after my experience with my genesis, i was not sure about a Necta... since it is so similar in design... and being very complex and expensive to repair. I've also been told buy guys who run hundreds of them that they are a " high maintence machine" It looks like ill be picking up the AP 223G I showed you guys. I talked to the vendor that is selling it and it seems like a very good deal. Plus I'm pretty sure it is a MDB machine since he was running a Bill Validator in it before it was removed from the account. I think Ill pick up a Crane 637 down the road and compair machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sideshot Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 yikes 28 year vet service technician i would take a 637 over a 223 any day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvending Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Depending on the type of account you are servicing, you need to determine brew times per cup. In a factory with scheduled morning 10 min breaks or afternoon breaks, grinders will take longer than a minute to deliver a cup. That gives you a max sale cycle of less than 10 cups. After all, who is waiting to buy a coffee just before break is over? I would look into the freeze dried coffee alternatives. There are some great coffees available now and believe me the machines are soooooo much simpler to work on. Everything is soluble. Cost per cup is much less and cost of operation is considerably less. Plus you can pump out a 14 oz cup in about 14 seconds. If they are using k-cups now this will be much more efficient. Just my thoughts. National 675 is my favorite, by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 637 is waaaay better than the AP223. ( Though, honestly the AP223 was the AP that finally got close to being as good as National. Almost. ) The Cafe 7 brewer started to be used by Crane on the 677 model. ( The progression was 627->637->657->677 ) I love that brewer. Better than the 27/37/57 brewer. But the Cafe 7 itself is garbage. Coffee machine valves are *almost* universal. Most APs and Nationals after the 627 used the Eaton style valves. The 627 used the crappier older valve. ( Even the modern Cafection and VKI machines are still using the Eaton style valve. It's a good part. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris in bc Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I have a few 637 brewers-love em! I have a few cafection brewers-love em. I have a new 673 disguised as a 945 and it is great-trouble free machine! I am in the process of installing dual grinders on the 945 (677 in disguise) do you have any real pics of the componentntl vending grinders??? Does any person out there have a pic of the grinders on a 677 coffee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Wow. Now that you mention it, the 677 did use a slightly different grinder. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liebermancompanies.com%2Fgetattachment%2FVending-Equipment%2FServices-Offered%2F673_HotDrinkCenterII_PARTS.pdf%2F&ei=lg57Uub9M4GbiALqmYDgAQ&usg=AFQjCNEKmmTqm5i1OQ1je945B8Bgzsoeyw&sig2=iU3tBjbdE9Q8uUODXLuzSQ&bvm=bv.56146854,d.cGE Edit, nope, looks the same in that manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris in bc Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Yeah-I bought a AP 945 from Betson CA last year. It arrived with a Crane National 677 series door ( traditional door with menu board on right and graphic on left......and the guts were all crane? weird eh?So now I am removing the loose ground hoppers and installing these: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcoffee Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 637 is waaaay better than the AP223. ( Though, honestly the AP223 was the AP that finally got close to being as good as National. Almost. ) The Cafe 7 brewer started to be used by Crane on the 677 model. ( The progression was 627->637->657->677 ) I love that brewer. Better than the 27/37/57 brewer. But the Cafe 7 itself is garbage. Coffee machine valves are *almost* universal. Most APs and Nationals after the 627 used the Eaton style valves. The 627 used the crappier older valve. ( Even the modern Cafection and VKI machines are still using the Eaton style valve. It's a good part. ) Yes, I agree! I'm not a big fan of my system 7's... but fixing the eaton valves is soo easy! Is it just me.... or is it allways the valve at the very back of the system 7 tank that allways needed fixing! The other eaton valves are no problem... but I allways have to fish my nut driver through wiring on the control board at the back.... I allways had a hard time with getting the nuts back on without dropping them in the machine, so I now tape the nuts to my nut driver with clear tape.. and then screw them on. I looked at a AP 223g and it looked great from the outside, but it was a total wreck on the inside.... needed ALOT of work. So I am going to take the advice I'm getting here and I'm going with a Crane 637, it is being fully rebuilt for me by a very well respected rebuilder and will be ready in 10 days. I just want to take the time to thank you guys for all of your input. I know my stuff when it comes to most other type of coffee machine, but I have allway avoided the full sized inclosed models.... who knows, maybe i will love this machine so much I will buy more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 After six months of working on tiny, cramped countertop coffee machines, I really miss all the room in a full sized coffee machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcoffee Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 Hey guys, a little update. I now have my fully reconditioned Crane 637 in my workshop. It is a freshbrew and has the brewer that does not use a paper filter. Today I plummed it up to get any bugs out and ajust the flavor to taste. So far I really like this machine, everything is working good however when I brew a coffee there is about 15-20 full sized peices of coffee grounds floating in the top of the cup.... I know because this model does use filter paper it may have some " dust " in the bottom of the cup... But this amount and size of grounds in the cup seems very wrong.... I was picking grounds out of my teeth for hours today after testing it Is this normal?... I hope not! I'm guessing that the first place to look is to make sure there are no holes in the brewer screen?? Any of you 637 guys experience this??? I'll be in the shop tomorow trying to figure this out..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Yes, you need to remove the brew barrel from the brewer and inspect the screen at the bottom for any holes or tears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris in bc Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 You should use a filter paper. Call Crane tech support Sylvain Langlois Voice Mail: 514-339-1334 Cell: 514-824-7376 . He is an expert on these machines! It is worth the phone call. I called tech support and now machines run perfectly! Take care of your business before your competition does! I use Club coffee-Guatemalen dark-Vending products sells this. I use an H4 water filter, write the date on the filter with a black sharpie brand marker. I dishwash all my bowls, brewers, lines once a year, use lots of hot water after you rinse everything at least 7 times, use quality ingredients for higher sales and many repeat, repeat sales. set your machine for auto rinse, auto clean. Use quality cups and keep the machine fresha nd you should do OK.....later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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