Jump to content

national 474 no support


Recommended Posts

I have a national 474 or 484 (147-based) combo apparently saying "no support" based off of the service call. Anyone know what this means? I'm guessing it lost its program or something.

I checkef two manuals :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They probably mean it's saying to make another selection or NO SHELF X.  You should make sure your shelves are seated and locked on both sides, verify your prices, coin mech and validator operation, do a motor test, etc.  It might not be the entire machine but just a selection or two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Update: I called n National. After lots of programming, it appears that my board has defaulted after losing power. However, the refrigeration unit does not power on nor does the bill acceptor. With that said, we (national tech and I) believe the board is bad.

It may just be a battery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You need to know that there is a coin mech interface board that powers the coin mech and validator and there is a "cold can module" board on the bottom of the can module that drives the motors and the turns the compressor on and off, as well as a temperature sensor board inside the can module.  You might have had a voltage spike that took those boards out while erasing all your prices.  I'm not sure if the logic board can be pinpointed as the sole problem without trying the outlying daughter boards first.  This machine will also have a snack interface board and a gum/mint interface board.  All of these different circuit boards is, in my opinion, the weakest design of National equipment.  They made their electronics too complicated with all those possible weak links.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There were well over a dozen errors.  All of the errors were caused by "coupling" of the motors for no apparent reason.  This "coupling" affected about 80% of the motors in the machine (by coupling different selections together) including every "tray" from A to G.  Furthermore, Only trays B, C, D, and I think G were active when we started to reprogram even though it SHOULD have been A, B, C, F, and G.  Many options were "locked" and the tech said "I don't know who sold you this but they should have unlocked everything first" and I laughed and told him that I had this machine on location for a while and I had used the options when they were UNlocked.

 

The machine had also lost all of its pricing.  Some prices were 0.06 while others were ridiculous numbers like 610.84.  I felt pretty sure that most machines only went up to 99.95 but, somehow, this machine went way up.  So... we both agreed that it sounded like the machine could not (or did not) store its programming after it was powered off and it was defaulting to whatever it was installed with from factory.  It is definitely possible that some of the other boards are bad too but all I am going to try a few things out and see what happens first.

 

The thing about the bill acceptor is that the customer told me that it started to make a lot of noise and act up (a MAKA or VFM.  I really don't remember which one) so she unplugged the machine and that's when it read "No support".  It seems that the reason why there was "no support" was because the pricing was gone and/or the motors were coupled.

 

I did see the interface board when I looked at the board earlier but I did not see any other boards.  The tech told me that a 147 WAS compatible so hopefully that is true.

 

What I don't know is how I could have gotten a voltage spike.  I hope I'm not being haunted by more transformer issues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris, from all the errors, wrong prices, coupling problems, shelf numbers not visible, etc., you are looking at a bad logic board. The other boards won't generate all those errors. Would you like me to send you another board for that?

PS: make sure there is a ground pin on your power cord. Also check for voltage from the cabinet to a building ground, or check for continuity (on the ohms scale) between either spade connector of your power plug (when unplugged) to any metal point in your machine. I have had a 474 machine have a stray short to the cabinet from live 110v internally and mabe you do too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris, from all the errors, wrong prices, coupling problems, shelf numbers not visible, etc., you are looking at a bad logic board. The other boards won't generate all those errors. Would you like me to send you another board for that?

PS: make sure there is a ground pin on your power cord. Also check for voltage from the cabinet to a building ground, or check for continuity (on the ohms scale) between either spade connector of your power plug (when unplugged) to any metal point in your machine. I have had a 474 machine have a stray short to the cabinet from live 110v internally and mabe you do too.

 

That's what I thought too, Randy.  That does not mean that my other boards haven't suffered damage but I think my board will not work properly for the time being.

 

I'm going to try my luck with a cheap national 147 board I just bought ($40) to see if it will remedy the problem.

 

Randy, National did say that the 147 board was compatible but what I am wondering is if these separate "boards" or "modules" mount to the board or if they are simply connected.  In other words, is the board in my 474 universal with all nationals of that generation?  The tech said they were but, from what you say, some machines have different smaller boards that operate different devices such as a can module or perhaps a frozen module.  I am aware of the coin mech interface board but I couldn't really get a good luck beyond the board due to all of the harnessing plugged into the back of the board.

 

I understand what you mean though.  It appeared far too complicated when I simply tried to find things like a motor harness.  Most AP machines I have ever seen are very simple and the harnesses plug neatly into the board whereas these Nationals have a rat's nest of harnesses going from one device to another.  It's hard to tell what's what.  I'm not looking forward to unplugging/plugging the boards nor am I looking forward to reprogramming this guy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This mess of boards in National machines is why I describe them as "whole other animal," though they wouldn't be foreign to someone who has always used National stuff. The 147 series all used the same logic board, coin mech interface and snack interface boards and they are mounted on your sliding panel from right to left: main logic, snack interface, coin mech interface.

Whatever optional components each machine came with determined what other little boards were included and those boards were integral with those optional pieces whether gum/mint, can soda, cold food, frozen food or coffee. You should go into your configuration menu and select your options there when you change the main board. Don't worry about your harness connectors as they will come off the old board and go right on the new board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not worried about them being compatible, I'm worried about them falling down and me having to fish them out lol. There appears to be very little slack. Everything was barely long enough to reach the board. Maybe there's a zip tie somewhere.

Thanks for the info though. So I guess I just have to configure the logic board to enable the refrigeration. The evaporator fan was running but I guess that's just because it is wired directly and not operated by the rest of the refrigeration unit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can just tape the harnesses to others nearby and that should hold them up. Yes, the evaporator fan will always have power that probably just goes straight through the can module wiring to the motor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Update. I installed the 147 board but the compressor would not run. National tech said my 147 board will not run in a 474 machine. I'm a bit frustrated with it. I'm going to get my old board repaired. Any other reason it won't come on? I figured it was just a programming issue. I enabled snack/can and there was a new option that read "C----- W" so I figured that was a cold control, but that didn't work.

I THOUGHT I heard the compressor click a few times but I'm not sure.

Maybe my compressor failed and damaged the old board?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tech support is inorrect as the same board is used in all 147 series machines of which the 474 is one. You do have to enable the can module through configuration. Perhaps you just need a different eprom. You could try the U14 eprom from your old board in your replacement board.

If your compressor clicks on and off without starting and your condenser fan is running then you need a new compressor. This might also mean that your board sees the can module if the compressor is trying to run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Update. I installed the 147 board but the compressor would not run. National tech said my 147 board will not run in a 474 machine. I'm a bit frustrated with it. I'm going to get my old board repaired. Any other reason it won't come on? I figured it was just a programming issue. I enabled snack/can and there was a new option that read "C----- W" so I figured that was a cold control, but that didn't work.

I THOUGHT I heard the compressor click a few times but I'm not sure.

Maybe my compressor failed and damaged the old board?

On the right side of the compressor housing is a small relay board that may well be the culprit as they're known for giving out.  I'm surprise that the 147 board is not correct as the upper section of the 474 is just a short version of a 148.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it possible that a failed compressor could damage the board? I'm just trying to find a link

On the right side of the compressor housing is a small relay board that may well be the culprit as they're known for giving out. I'm surprise that the 147 board is not correct as the upper section of the 474 is just a short version of a 148.

I was wondering about this. It makes more sense that something like that was clicking once. I just can't figure out how I had a refrigeration problem with a board problem unless a power surge caused it.

Tech support is inorrect as the same board is used in all 147 series machines of which the 474 is one. You do have to enable the can module through configuration. Perhaps you just need a different eprom. You could try the U14 eprom from your old board in your replacement board.

If your compressor clicks on and off without starting and your condenser fan is running then you need a new compressor. This might also mean that your board sees the can module if the compressor is trying to run.

I don't think the condenser fan was running. I didn't notice any solid airflow. I would say the evaporator fan was on though. I really don't want to mess with the cooling deck on a combo machine unless it's easy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the clicking sound is faint then it could be the refrigeration relay on the board that moondog mentioned. That sound would indicate a likely can interface board problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it possible that a failed compressor could damage the board? I'm just trying to find a link

I was wondering about this. It makes more sense that something like that was clicking once. I just can't figure out how I had a refrigeration problem with a board problem unless a power surge caused it.

I don't think the condenser fan was running. I didn't notice any solid airflow. I would say the evaporator fan was on though. I really don't want to mess with the cooling deck on a combo machine unless it's easy.

The compressor deck is not that hard to pull,  Take out the lower tray so you can access the L-brackets that hold the soda box in place - once you remove the two bottom bolts, the whole thing will pull out and you can separate the Compressor housing from the soda box via two straps at the back.  Do not attempt to pull the deck out of the plastic housing as the condensor is trapped in the upper section.  Just take the whole thing in, plastic housing and all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The compressor deck is not that hard to pull,  Take out the lower tray so you can access the L-brackets that hold the soda box in place - once you remove the two bottom bolts, the whole thing will pull out and you can separate the Compressor housing from the soda box via two straps at the back.  Do not attempt to pull the deck out of the plastic housing as the condensor is trapped in the upper section.  Just take the whole thing in, plastic housing and all.

 

Thanks for that.  Between what you said and what AZVendor said, I have no idea whether I have a programming issue (doubtful), a board issue (doubtful), an interface problem (I think I have this more than anything) or a refrigeration problem (I doubt it).

 

One key bit of information is that the tech told me that I had to enter a "code" (not a pass code) to convert the machine to a snack/can machine.  That code was either 1007 or 1021 I believe.  That "code" sets the machine up supposedly.  I could not access that option.  He said it should say something like cnfig and some numbers like cnfig#### but that option was not available.  He said it should have it in there or else there's no way to make the machine recognize that it is a snack/can combo machine.  Since that option didn't exist, he claimed the board was wrong.  However, if my can interface board is bad, I guess it wouldn't enable the compressor.

 

AZVendor, what is this board supposed to be called?  I wonder if I could just send it off for repairs or buy one outright.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is what I found: http://www.capitalvending.com/cart.php?target=product&product_id=5249&category_id=697  I wonder if this is what I need?  I hate to keep throwing parts at this machine.

That would be the one - apparently this is the weakest link in this system - I went through this whole business a couple of years ago with a 474 I got for $200 that needed some work - turned out a lot of work  ;D  While you've got the thing torn down, it wouldn't hurt to pull the front of the soda box off and check for broken ejector parts, I ended up replacing several pieces in there as well (carefully pry hard)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, that didn't say it was compatible with a 474.  This is the temp. sensor board... don't know if that's what I need.

 

http://www.capitalvending.com/cart.php?target=product&product_id=5973&category_id=697

Crane used that same soda box compressor set up for years in many combo models - that's probably the correct interface

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The temperature board is the link you posted and you won't need that unless the machine reports an obviously wrong temperature.  The Triac board for the compressor on the 474 can module is p/n 4744563.  If you want one I can ship it to you.  It's $75 plus shipping.  If you need the temp sensor it's $38.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bummer is that I don't know what's working and what isn't. I couldn't tell if the machine was even reporting any temperature at all.

Everything worked except the compressor would not kick on. Does the can module control the compressor?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...