terry Posted June 14, 2015 Author Share Posted June 14, 2015 Nothing wrong with AP (nice machines) but they are no longer produced because Crane bought them out and stopped production a few years back. I do believe they are USI from Iowa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJT Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 I do believe they are USI from Iowa LOL, so you said AP now USI? Which is it? Either way both are good machines. USI is currently being made (not all models depending on age) so that's a plus. Some USI require you to send the mother boards off to USI direct to be fixed because of one or two of the chips are not available to independent re-builders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry Posted June 14, 2015 Author Share Posted June 14, 2015 LOL, so you said AP now USI? Which is it? Either way both are good machines. USI is currently being made (not all models depending on age) so that's a plus. Some USI require you to send the mother boards off to USI direct to be fixed because of one or two of the chips are not available to independent re-builders. sorry they were USI I checked out quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJT Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 sorry they were USI I checked out quote Which model and price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry Posted June 14, 2015 Author Share Posted June 14, 2015 Which model and price? Alpine VT5000 delivered to location @ 8k per machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 The cooling units on the Alpine machines are a golpher to work on because they glue the housings together. The price sounds outrageous but you are in Canada so the exchange rate is terrible and you'll pay the premium for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walta Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 You left out the only number that really matters Your labor if you cannot pay yourself first you will call it quits very fast. In my opinion liability insurance is a must have missing from the list. It looks like you are subtracting the “cost of good” twice. With your sales numbers consider servicing the stop every other week to lower labor and fuel costs. Try your numbers with used equipment adding a repair budget subtracting a loan payment. Please understand this is a tuff completive business demanding long hours and hard work. As a newbie you are very unlikely to get high profit accounts. Walta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJT Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Alpine VT5000 delivered to location @ 8k per machine Those are combo machines. Stay away from combo machines for the reasons that have been posted on this forum many times. Like AZ said that price is crazy but not sure of the exchange rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJT Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 You left out the only number that really matters Your labor if you cannot pay yourself first you will call it quits very fast. In my opinion liability insurance is a must have missing from the list. It looks like you are subtracting the “cost of good” twice. With your sales numbers consider servicing the stop every other week to lower labor and fuel costs. Try your numbers with used equipment adding a repair budget subtracting a loan payment. Please understand this is a tuff completive business demanding long hours and hard work. As a newbie you are very unlikely to get high profit accounts. Walta I agree with some of your points but not on a few. Service times is determined by account volume not lowering labor and fuel cost. If an account only deserves every other week service they I take them out of my business. They simply are not worth the time and effort they require to deal with them. Some think getting $100 EOW is just fine the problem is if you get enough of those they start taking away from your good accounts with service calls, and other issues. You can really bog down a vending operation with a lot of slower accounts once you start growing. It can be tough depending on your area. Some is highly competitive so is not. Newbies can get plenty of high profit accounts if they know how. A newbie can get high profit accounts if they know how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry Posted June 14, 2015 Author Share Posted June 14, 2015 So when you guys say $100 a week is the gross or profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry Posted June 14, 2015 Author Share Posted June 14, 2015 You left out the only number that really matters Your labor if you cannot pay yourself first you will call it quits very fast. In my opinion liability insurance is a must have missing from the list. It looks like you are subtracting the “cost of good” twice. With your sales numbers consider servicing the stop every other week to lower labor and fuel costs. Try your numbers with used equipment adding a repair budget subtracting a loan payment. Please understand this is a tuff completive business demanding long hours and hard work. As a newbie you are very unlikely to get high profit accounts. Walta why do I need liability insurance in case someone get sick from a product in machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Any smart business owner has liability insurance. In this case it must include "Completed Products" to cover you for any damage from the items you sell. This also protects you from damage to a building when moving machines in or any injury a machine can cause someone. Just because you can't think of a need doesn't mean the need isn't there. Floors and door ways get damaged, people get sick and blame you, fires start in vending machines, etc. I forgot to add that any bank that does it's due diligence on loans they make will require you to have the insurance so don't leave it out of your business plan or they might think less of your business acumen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walta Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 I fear some bizop is trying sell the “make money while you sleep” line. They promise a turnkey route with positive cash flow. They deliver a route 10 over priced combo machines set in 20 dollar a week stops paying 20% commission that has a negative cash flow of hundreds of dollars a month. What I am saying is not that it cannot be done. Just that it is not easy or simple as writhing a check to a salesman. Walta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry Posted June 14, 2015 Author Share Posted June 14, 2015 okay lets say I have 10 machines doing 1000 a month each (just an example) that's 10 000 Expenses: sales Tax 13% 1300 Fuel 320 business licence 170 Bank service fee 50 COG 5000 Loan payment 2000 Card processing fee 150 Commissions 2000 liability insurance not sure yet total 10 900 If I have figured this out right in going in the hole 900 a month ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Based off of your numbers, yes, you would be losing money every month for the length of your loan. It seems to me that you are convinced that if you buy a few Vending machines, you'll strike it rich real soon. If that's the case, I advise you to try to go back to your 75k/year job and find a baby sitter. What we are all trying to say is there is no way to give you numbers for a forecast in this business. How could we unless you already had accounts lined up? And why would we? You're just asking to take out a big loan and get banged up financially with this idea of getting rich from Vending. One thing I want to point out is that it's normal to be in the hole for several years when you start ANY business. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't even try to start ANY business. Another thing you need to realize is that for 80,000, you could buy an existing Vending business with actual numbers to work with to show the bank. You want us to give you numbers out of thin air. This is a forum about the REAL world of Vending, not the cash flow forecast dreamland of Vending. We can evaluate potential accounts, machines, and much more, but we can't make up numbers to try to get a bank loan anymore than you can. Another tip. Using your 160 vends per week and 172 vends per week figures, those combos would be sold out on a regular basis. It's just my opinion.... But you sound like you just want to make up numbers to the bank to get a loan, buy a few machines, and stay home 4 days each week while striking it rich. I'm telling you right now, it simply doesn't work that way. You're going to have to work far more than you think. You're going to make far less than you think, and you're going to regret your decision far far more than you ever thought possible. Until you want to learn about the REAL Vending world first, there's no way you'll be able to make a legitimate business plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moondog Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 okay lets say I have 10 machines doing 1000 a month each (just an example) that's 10 000 Expenses: sales Tax 13% 1300 Fuel 320 business licence 170 Bank service fee 50 COG 5000 Loan payment 2000 Card processing fee 150 Commissions 2000 liability insurance not sure yet total 10 900 If I have figured this out right in going in the hole 900 a month ?? Only when donkeys fly will you ever get 10 machines doing $1,000 each starting out - not on this planet. A much more reasonable number would be $200 a month each and only then if you find some very good accounts. To replace that $75,000 job you'll need to figure on operating at least 60 machines, all in good locations and you'll be working the same 9 to 5 just to keep them all serviced a minimum of four days a week. I liked Chris's babysitter option much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry Posted June 14, 2015 Author Share Posted June 14, 2015 Based off of your numbers, yes, you would be losing money every month for the length of your loan. It seems to me that you are convinced that if you buy a few Vending machines, you'll strike it rich real soon. If that's the case, I advise you to try to go back to your 75k/year job and find a baby sitter. What we are all trying to say is there is no way to give you numbers for a forecast in this business. How could we unless you already had accounts lined up? And why would we? You're just asking to take out a big loan and get banged up financially with this idea of getting rich from Vending. One thing I want to point out is that it's normal to be in the hole for several years when you start ANY business. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't even try to start ANY business. Another thing you need to realize is that for 80,000, you could buy an existing Vending business with actual numbers to work with to show the bank. You want us to give you numbers out of thin air. This is a forum about the REAL world of Vending, not the cash flow forecast dreamland of Vending. We can evaluate potential accounts, machines, and much more, but we can't make up numbers to try to get a bank loan anymore than you can. Another tip. Using your 160 vends per week and 172 vends per week figures, those combos would be sold out on a regular basis. It's just my opinion.... But you sound like you just want to make up numbers to the bank to get a loan, buy a few machines, and stay home 4 days each week while striking it rich. I'm telling you right now, it simply doesn't work that way. You're going to have to work far more than you think. You're going to make far less than you think, and you're going to regret your decision far far more than you ever thought possible. Until you want to learn about the REAL Vending world first, there's no way you'll be able to make a legitimate business plan. You guys are not seeing the whole picture I am willing to work 50-60 hours a week. The option of going back to my other job is off the table with my current life situation. I am trying to put a business model together that will pay off in 4 years. The reason I am choosing to use new machines is the locations I want to approach are high profile. I have 3 gold/copper mines, the local school board is looking for 35 new machines for next sept. I dont expect to get RICH off this business its lots of hard work but there is money in it. I just have to find a way to make the numbers work. Maybe referbs are the way to go I like the idea of the Warranty on new machines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Growliebusters Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 This is sounding almost exactly like the pitch I fell for with fresh o matic. The numbers given as an average vend per day per machine was a complete fabrication. I was fortunate enough to only need a small loan to start. I omly invested enough that if this didnt work, i wouldnt lose the house. 4 combos I placed myself only paid the loan and kept product in them. Its was only after I purchased 2 routes am I now able to take some money out of the company. I have 17 machines placed and still have to work a full time job. The numbers you are using don't exisit for a startup. IMO. If you don't have an income, you arnt going to get a loan. Its that simple. As a side note, I'm in Calgary which has been growing beyond belief up until this year. I still haven't been able to crack the accounts with the sales you are quoting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 You're trying to tell me, a full line vendor, that I don't see your big picture. That's like a child try to lecture an adult on how to be an adult. That aside, here's what you're missing out. Accounts don't come to you just because you want them. That school you speak of.. With your current setup using combo machines, you would probably go bankrupt. The gold mine... I have no idea how that would be,but I can see your $8,000 machines looking like scrap metal. We have all seen that big picture here. That's what you might not realize. In the end, you learn that it simply isn't that easy. I have FAR more access to machines than you do, and I wouldn't even try to do a school that needed 35 machines. That's a whole different ballgame for the big guys. You need to respect that we've SEEN how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJT Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Only when donkeys fly will you ever get 10 machines doing $1,000 each starting out - not on this planet. A much more reasonable number would be $200 a month each and only then if you find some very good accounts. To replace that $75,000 job you'll need to figure on operating at least 60 machines, all in good locations and you'll be working the same 9 to 5 just to keep them all serviced a minimum of four days a week. I liked Chris's babysitter option much better. Sorry but Donkey's fly at my farm all the time with my clients. However he is not going to be doing it with combo machines without working himself to death. That number is not out of the question if he/she knows what accounts and how to get them. If a person has a sales ability they can get these type accounts. The issue that comes into play being able to figure out how and what to negotiate the correct numbers with these accounts. This is why I keep stressing the importance in hiring a consultant (either me or someone else) that can help with this type of thing to help you get where you want/need to be. It may sound like I am trying to "sell" my services but in the end if I wasn't in the consulting business and you asked my opinion I would give you this same advice. A. Go work for someone for a year or two in vending and learn the business and see if you want to do it. B. Or hire a reputable consultant to help guide you in the right direction. Back some years ago (before I was ever in consulting) I considered opening a bar. After much research I reached out to a consultant to guide me. In the end I didn't open the bar because my wife had our son and didn't want to be away from home that much. The point is the consultant was my only way to go since I had very little knowledge in starting and running a bar. Back in my day I was in a bars more so than in my home but that didn't make me an "expert" in owning a bar. You guys are not seeing the whole picture I am willing to work 50-60 hours a week. The option of going back to my other job is off the table with my current life situation. I am trying to put a business model together that will pay off in 4 years. The reason I am choosing to use new machines is the locations I want to approach are high profile. I have 3 gold/copper mines, the local school board is looking for 35 new machines for next sept. I dont expect to get RICH off this business its lots of hard work but there is money in it. I just have to find a way to make the numbers work. Maybe referbs are the way to go I like the idea of the Warranty on new machines The mines are one thing but I would be VERY careful with that school system stuff. Been there done that. I DO NOT do schools for various reasons but I am not familiar with Canada so I cant speak from direct experience but I doubt it will be much different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moondog Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 You guys are not seeing the whole picture I am willing to work 50-60 hours a week. The option of going back to my other job is off the table with my current life situation. I am trying to put a business model together that will pay off in 4 years. The reason I am choosing to use new machines is the locations I want to approach are high profile. I have 3 gold/copper mines, the local school board is looking for 35 new machines for next sept. I dont expect to get RICH off this business its lots of hard work but there is money in it. I just have to find a way to make the numbers work. Maybe referbs are the way to go I like the idea of the Warranty on new machines If the warranty is so important to you, then buy all new coin mechanisms and bill validators as these will constitute 90% of your repairs on any machine. The gold mines sound like great accounts but I would only put the AMS Outsiders in there as they are heavy duty and you'll need something that will take some abuse with a bunch of miners. They'd beat the crap out of a new Crane or USI in three months. Schools can be much trickier as they often have many restrictions like healthy vending only or reduced hours of operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moondog Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 You're trying to tell me, a full line vendor, that I don't see your big picture. That's like a child try to lecture an adult on how to be an adult. That aside, here's what you're missing out. Accounts don't come to you just because you want them. That school you speak of.. With your current setup using combo machines, you would probably go bankrupt. The gold mine... I have no idea how that would be,but I can see your $8,000 machines looking like scrap metal. We have all seen that big picture here. That's what you might not realize. In the end, you learn that it simply isn't that easy. I have FAR more access to machines than you do, and I wouldn't even try to do a school that needed 35 machines. That's a whole different ballgame for the big guys. You need to respect that we've SEEN how it works. Note to OP - DO NOT PISS Chris OFF!!!! They don't cal him angry for nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EatMoreJunk Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I've been in part time vending for 10+ years ... a little less than two years ago I decided to dive in head first, borrowed $78k and bought an existing route ... mostly USI equipment. Looking back it was a good buy ... not great, but good. I'm on pace to pay off my loan in 26 months. I would have NEVER gone into full line vending starting from scratch, buying new machines, trying to go out and find good accounts. I realize that not everyone can find good routes for sale (the guy I bought out was retiring) but it seems very risky to do what you're proposing here. As several folks have said, prepare to work harder than you expect. This business does offer a lot of flexibility but if you're a "one man operation" then you must remember that if you get hurt or sick, you're screwed .... those snacks and drinks keep on selling and empty machines will catch up to you quickly. And it's hard to keep a good replacement person trained if they don't go out with you somewhat regularly. It's not like owning a store where you can just close up shop when you leave town or get sick. I wish you the best on this but please take the advice you're getting very seriously - I haven't been around here too long but I can tell you that these long term guys know EXACTLY what they're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Thank you all for the great advice I have learned more in the last few weeks since I joined this form. Then I did doing a months worth of research Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedk Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 okay lets say I have 10 machines doing 1000 a month each (just an example) that's 10 000 Expenses: sales Tax 13% 1300 Fuel 320 business licence 170 Bank service fee 50 COG 5000 Loan payment 2000 Card processing fee 150 Commissions 2000 liability insurance not sure yet total 10 900 If I have figured this out right in going in the hole 900 a month ?? A couple of things I see wrong with this list are: Sales tax - you get to deduct the tax you paid on purchases do the tax in your example will be closer to $650 Business licenses are a yearly expense not monthly Commission - 20% is probably more than most of us would offer unless the prices were raised to some or all it. If you are going after the school with 35 machines get a long term commitment. Coke and Pepsi will be all over these type of accounts with deals you cannot match. If the school decides to leave after a year you will be stuck making payments on a garage full of machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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