I've given up hope with honor boxes. Am I wrong here?

[BobTHJ]

I know I've asked this before but does ANYONE in here who is reading this currently run an honor box (only) business as a permanent, established career? If so, please tell me about it.

I don't technically meet your requirements as I do full line and bulk vending as well, however honor boxes are majority (~60%) of my full-time vending business. In the past 30 days I have NET (after COGS and taxes) $1800 from around 150 honor box accounts. In eight months I have lost about 25 accounts total, and not a single one because I pulled the box (most have been due to the business closing as a result of the poor economy). I have two accounts currently where I'm losing money - so I may have to pull these, but that's 2 out of 150. My average theft across all my accounts is 18%.

Admittedly, I have an advantage. I purchased an established honor box route of about 100 accounts eight months ago - many of these accounts have had honor boxes for years. However, of the 60+ new accounts I've placed I still have (and profit off of) about 75% of them. I do custom-pack my boxes for each location and track usage using custom-built software I designed. When an account is slow I put it on a long service cycle (up to 60 days). Often times these slow accounts will turn into faster accounts when a snack-loving employee is hired. When an account is low-paying I use hand-written notes first, and then follow up with the manager if high-theft continues. In most cases this has solved the issue (either the manager gets after the employees, or agrees to pay-up the difference - though I never put it on them to settle up). As a last resort I will remove high cost items from the box and only sell items with a markup larger than the theft rate to ensure the box stays profitable despite 50%+ theft - in eight months I've done this with 3-5 accounts.

I have no doubt that I could run an honor-box only business full time if I wished to. The prior owner of my honor box business did for 30 years - he had 1000+ accounts at one point across the entire state (and would still have had a failed buyer not run the business into he ground). I probably wouldn't advise someone attempt a full-time honor box only business however: not because I don't believe it to be possible, but because it is more time and dollar-efficient to incorporate other forms of vending as well. A lot of my expansion is done via cross selling other lines of vending to existing customers - perhaps this is part of the reason I have better customer retention rates than you have experienced.

[thevendingbutler1]

O.K. well I guess you've all hit on my points then (especially you BobTHJ in saying that you "would not advise someone to attempt a full time honor box only business." ) There's very little profit to be made versus the actual number of hours that you put into this business. I think this is even more true when you start including other forms of vending though I guess it CAN equate into a full time living. You better be ready to work yourself to death though. Lawn care, while there's some work involved, is VASTLY more profitable and you can do it all by yourself and make even more money on a relative scale.ANYONE READING THIS ASK YOURSELF HOW MANY LAWN CARE BUSINESS OWNERS DO YOU SEE DRIVING AROUND EVERY DAY AND DO YOU EVER SEE ANYONE OUT THERE RUNNING AN HONOR BOX BUSINESS? DON'T YOU THINK THERE'S A REASON FOR THIS? Personally I don't want to feel like I'm living in the People's Republic of North Korea even if I am working for myself. If I have to work 100 or more hours a week that's not living.

[thevendingbutler1]

Rdendy you don't think there's anything dark or evil about the movie "The Punisher" I saw that movie when I was a kid and I wish my parents had prevented me from doing so. As far as I remember from that movie you don't think there's anything dark or evil about a a man's family being murdered in cold blood and then inflicting some serious violence on the people who did wrong to him??? First off I find it very difficult to believe that you are actually in the honor box business (other than maybe selling them to other people). If you see things that way, how could you ever handle being in a business where many, many, people steal from you?

[Rick]

I don't technically meet your requirements as I do full line and bulk vending as well, however honor boxes are majority (~60%) of my full-time vending business. In the past 30 days I have NET (after COGS and taxes) $1800 from around 150 honor box accounts. In eight months I have lost about 25 accounts total, and not a single one because I pulled the box (most have been due to the business closing as a result of the poor economy). I have two accounts currently where I'm losing money - so I may have to pull these, but that's 2 out of 150. My average theft across all my accounts is 18%.

Admittedly, I have an advantage. I purchased an established honor box route of about 100 accounts eight months ago - many of these accounts have had honor boxes for years. However, of the 60+ new accounts I've placed I still have (and profit off of) about 75% of them. I do custom-pack my boxes for each location and track usage using custom-built software I designed. When an account is slow I put it on a long service cycle (up to 60 days). Often times these slow accounts will turn into faster accounts when a snack-loving employee is hired. When an account is low-paying I use hand-written notes first, and then follow up with the manager if high-theft continues. In most cases this has solved the issue (either the manager gets after the employees, or agrees to pay-up the difference - though I never put it on them to settle up). As a last resort I will remove high cost items from the box and only sell items with a markup larger than the theft rate to ensure the box stays profitable despite 50%+ theft - in eight months I've done this with 3-5 accounts.

I have no doubt that I could run an honor-box only business full time if I wished to. The prior owner of my honor box business did for 30 years - he had 1000+ accounts at one point across the entire state (and would still have had a failed buyer not run the business into he ground). I probably wouldn't advise someone attempt a full-time honor box only business however: not because I don't believe it to be possible, but because it is more time and dollar-efficient to incorporate other forms of vending as well. A lot of my expansion is done via cross selling other lines of vending to existing customers - perhaps this is part of the reason I have better customer retention rates than you have experienced.

Bob, how much time/month do you spend servicing those 150 boxes and what is your service area?

[BobTHJ]

My service area is the major cities/towns within ~100 miles of my home. I live in Grand Junction - the largest city in western colorado - and 75% of my business is within 10 miles of my office. I have two out of town routes one going east and the other south to pick up the other two neighboring cities and the towns in-between. It is a pretty rural area overall: not much competition, but also businesses are more spread out.

At present I put in a little less than 40 hours a week for the entire business, but this also includes my full-line and bulk. Per box (not including driving time) I spend about 15 minutes per service. 5 to pack a new box, 5 to service the account and swap boxes, and another 5 to count money and review the account history. I perform ~100 box services per month, and net ~$1800 per month from those (not counting fuel), so that's $72/hour for my time spent servicing honor boxes. Deduct fuel costs, overhead, and time spent driving, re-supplying, etc. and I still probably do half that ($36/hour) when working on honor boxes. It's tough to come up with an exact number as I don't separate my routes between boxes and vending machines - I run them all together.

I can honestly say that in most locations I'd much rather have an honor box than a snack machine. I'll sell 2-3 times as much product out of an honor box, and make a higher profit even after deducting theft. I doubled my monthly net at one of my largest locations (breakroom at a busy auto-parts store) by swapping out my snack machine for a pair of honor boxes.

[rdendy]

Rdendy you don't think there's anything dark or evil about the movie "The Punisher" I saw that movie when I was a kid and I wish my parents had prevented me from doing so. As far as I remember from that movie you don't think there's anything dark or evil about a a man's family being murdered in cold blood and then inflicting some serious violence on the people who did wrong to him??? First off I find it very difficult to believe that you are actually in the honor box business (other than maybe selling them to other people). If you see things that way, how could you ever handle being in a business where many, many, people steal from you?

I don't believe a fictional movie, based off a make believe comic, is evil, anymore than I believe that any fictional book/movie/art is evil. There is enough real evil in the world to worry about make believe evil.

Theft is part of any business, whether it's direct like honor box, shoplifting, grab n ****** or indirect like employees taking office equipment or using a business card for non business charges. The difference is that successful companies figure out ways to discourage theft, minimize it or to accommodate for it using sales, higher prices, w/e. I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't sell and currently don't use honor boxes. What I do have is an issue with people telling you over and over how they have used honor boxes in their business to make money and you keep coming here, TO A VENDING WEBSITE, to bash how vending sucks because you couldn't do it right. I tired being nice but you just can't seem to get past you failed because of your own actions, not because someone stole from you. YOU CHOSE THE BUSINESS MODEL, YOU CHOSE THE LOCATIONS, YOU CHOSE THE PRODUCTS TO SELL, AND YOU CHOSE YOUR PRICE POINTS. If you can't take responsibility for your own choices in life and feel the need to make an excuse of why everything is the fault of something out of your control, or that it's someone else's fault because they didn't act as you expected them too, or tell you what you want to hear, then you never will be able to take control of your own life. Again I am sorry for your bad experience but I wouldn't go to a forum about raising kids to golpher that it can't be done because they suck, or to a forum about home improvement to complain about it can't be done because contractors rip you off or thieves steal you supplies. Yet you feel it's OK to come to a forum that is built to uplift, encourage and exchange positive ideas and ways of doing things regarding vending to whine about how much vending sucks because you couldn't make it work. I have no time for excuse makers and cry babies, I wasn't raised that way, and I will waste no more time with this thread. I wish you Good Day and Good Luck.

[thevendingbutler1]

This is for Rick,

The guy you are referring to is the guy who really talked me into this whole thing in the first place. He is no longer in the honor box business and hasn't been doing that for quite some time now. I spent over an hour talking with him on the phone.What he makes money on is selling his honor boxes to other people. He is a salesman. Salesmen in order to make a profit for themselves very much so have a tendency to over exaggerate things. There are many things he told me that through my own experience I have found to be untrue with this business. If you won't believe me then maybe you need to put your trust in him then and get your #@# kicked in doing this and learn the hard way. Then 6 months down the road you might be the one who is %$%^#$ off and in here telling these people (some of them I find very questionable as to their real motives) the same thing I'm saying. If you also want to go into the full line vending business then even that guy will tell you (and you can go to his website and read what he says) you better be ready to work yourself to death. Or you can talk with the guy in Remington, IN and he will tell you basically the same thing. Like I keep saying to you though, go investigate this for yourself. Also ask yourself this question: WHAT COULD I POSSIBLY STAND TO GAIN BY TELLING ANYONE ANY OF THIS STUFF OTHER THAN TO VOICE MY FRUSTRATION ABOUT EVERYTHING I'VE BEEN THROUGH?

[thevendingbutler1]

rdendy you just sound like a used car salesman with a bullhorn to me.

BobTHJ how often do you service your locations?

Also BobTHJ how much do you charge for your items, what is your COGS, and how many stops do you do in a business day?

BTW for anyone interested, as far as what BobTHJ said there's NO WAY you are going to have 75% of your locations within a 10 mile radius. Don't believe me? go out and try it for yourself and see how long each account on average holds up for you.

[Rick]

This is for Rick,

The guy you are referring to is the guy who really talked me into this whole thing in the first place. He is no longer in the honor box business and hasn't been doing that for quite some time now. I spent over an hour talking with him on the phone.What he makes money on is selling his honor boxes to other people. He is a salesman. Salesmen in order to make a profit for themselves very much so have a tendency to over exaggerate things. There are many things he told me that through my own experience I have found to be untrue with this business. If you won't believe me then maybe you need to put your trust in him then and get your #@# kicked in doing this and learn the hard way. Then 6 months down the road you might be the one who is %$%^#$ off and in here telling these people (some of them I find very questionable as to their real motives) the same thing I'm saying. If you also want to go into the full line vending business then even that guy will tell you (and you can go to his website and read what he says) you better be ready to work yourself to death. Or you can talk with the guy in Remington, IN and he will tell you basically the same thing. Like I keep saying to you though, go investigate this for yourself. Also ask yourself this question: WHAT COULD I POSSIBLY STAND TO GAIN BY TELLING ANYONE ANY OF THIS STUFF OTHER THAN TO VOICE MY FRUSTRATION ABOUT EVERYTHING I'VE BEEN THROUGH?

No, I believe you're telling the truth about your own experience. I just don't think that's what everyone experiences with honor snacks. I'll find out soon enough I guess! Best of luck to ya in lawn care.

[thevendingbutler1]

O.K. Rick good luck to you too.

This is for anyone reading this: ANYONE CAN MAKE UP ANYTHING ABOUT THEMSELVES OR THEIR BUSINESS ONLINE THAT THEY WANT TO. YOU CAN BE ANYBODY THAT YOU WANT TO BE AND NO ONE REALLY HAS ANY WAY OF VERIFYING THAT. I THINK THE REAL QUESTIONS SHOULD BE "WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE SPENDING SO MUCH TIME IN HERE IF THEY ARE ACTUAL REAL VENDING BUSINESS OWNERS? IF THEY WERE TRULY VENDING BUSINESS OWNERS SHOULDN'T THEY BE BUSY RUNNING THEIR BUSINESS? WHY WOULD ANYONE BE SO CONCERNED WITH SOMEONE ELSE SHARING AN ADVERSE VIEWPOINT TO ALL THIS AND LIKE RDENDY SAID EARLIER BRINGING "NEGATIVITY" AND "BAD VIBES" IN HERE?

I think it's because they have a business of selling honor boxes to other people who don't know any better. Do something else too: Next time you are in Sam's Club and you see a real vendor in there buying stuff, ask him/her if they do honor boxes. Ask them what they think about that.

[Donovon]

[thevendingbutler1]

So you're actually admitting that you AREN'T REAL then Donovon. What's the name of your business that sells honor boxes to other people who don't know any better and don't know that this business doesn't work?

[BobTHJ]

BobTHJ how often do you service your locations?

Also BobTHJ how much do you charge for your items, what is your COGS, and how many stops do you do in a business day?

BTW for anyone interested, as far as what BobTHJ said there's NO WAY you are going to have 75% of your locations within a 10 mile radius. Don't believe me? go out and try it for yourself and see how long each account on average holds up for you.

As I said earlier, each location is on a variable service cycle depending on how busy it is. My busiest boxes I'll service around once every 10 days (and if needed more frequently than that I'll add a second box). The slowest boxes I service once every 60 days or so. Every item in my box I sell for $0.75. If I had started from scratch I would have charged $1.00 per item (I'm planning to increase to $1.00 per item with some 2 for 1's sometime this summer) but I didn't want to make drastic changes just after taking over the business. My COGS averages about 35-40% but varies from location to location. The number of boxes I service in a day is 10-20, plus my machines.

75% of my locations are in fact within 10 miles of my office - and there are many businesses within that 10 mile radius where I have not yet attempted to place a box, but then again I do live in the middle of the biggest city on this half of the state. I don't see how anyone who lives in a city of 100,000+ people couldn't pull this off as well. As I mentioned above I still have 75% of the new accounts I've placed - and of those I've lost almost half were due to businesses closing. The rest are fairly evenly split between service issues (I failed to meet their wants), money issues (they asked me to pull the box after poor payment), and customers deciding to do their own vending (annoying, but I find after a few months I can get some of these accounts back once they get tired of buying their own stuff).

[Donovon]

Do something else too: Next time you are in Sam's Club and you see a real vendor in there buying stuff, ask him/her if they do honor boxes. Ask them what they think about that.

I'm real, and so is everyone on the forum

[decaturjack]

I've got a whole box of popcorn this is great stuff!

[thevendingbutler1]

This is for BobTHJ,

as to what you were trying to say about your business, ANYONE CAN MAKE UP ANYTHING THEY WANT TO ABOUT THEMSELVES AND THEIR BUSINESS THAT THEY WANT TO ON HERE. THERE'S NO WAY THAT ANYONE HAS OF VERIFYING ANYTHING. I COULD ALSO GO TO A DIFFERENT FORUM FULL OF SINGLE WOMEN AND START TELLING THEM THAT I RUN A MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS IN THE SOFTWARE INDUSTRY. AND I'LL BET AT LEAST SOMEONE IN THERE WOULD OUTRIGHT BELIEVE ME.I COULD BE ANYONE THAT I WANT TO BE.

The real questions that I have for you have nothing to do what what you've claimed about your business (which I know from my own numbers are just outright false). I'm wondering why if you are as successful as you say you are in the honor box business, why would you be spending so much time in here? Why would it matter so much to you to try and disprove someone who has had a much adverse experience in this whole business. IT SEEMS VERY MUCH SO TO ME THAT IF THERE WERE ANY PERSON WHO WAS ACTUALLY SUCCESSFUL WITH THIS THEY WOULD BE VERY MUCH SO IN FAVOR OF WHAT I AM SAYING IN HERE. THAT'S BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN LESS COMPETITION FOR THEM IN THE FUTURE AGAINST OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE CONSIDERING GOING INTO THE HONOR BOX BUSINESS. EVERY PERSON WITH AN OUNCE OF COMMON SENSE KNOWS THAT LESS COMPETITION = MORE PROFFIT FOR THEM.

BobTHJ what is that the name of your business that sells honor boxes to other people?

[thevendingbutler1]

BobTHJ,

I also own 2,000 comercial jet airliners and 100 airports around the world. I gross annually 750,000,000,000,000.00, 99% of which goes straight into my pocket as net profit for me. I own a 200 story building in Dubai, a whole city block of condos in Paris worth $850 million dollars each. I'm also the proud leader of a 3rd world country.

I guess I can be anybody I want to be as long as I'm online and no one has ANY WAY of proving otherwise about me. FOR ANYONE WHO HAS READ WHAT THIS GUY (BobTHJ) HAS SAID ABOUT HIS SUPPOSED NUMBERS, AND IS BRAND NEW TO THIS BUSINESS, WHEN YOU ARE OUT LOCATING BOXES NEXT TIME PAY ATTENTION TO HOW MANY PEOPLE SAY "WE TRIED THAT BEFORE BUT IT DIDN'T WORK HERE". BELIEVE IT OR NOT THERE WILL BE OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE TRIED THIS BUSINESS BEFORE YOU AND IF YOU PAY ATTENTION, YOU WILL SEE REMNANTS OF WHAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS TRIED ALREADY. THERE MAY BE A VERY FEW NUMBER OF SCATTERED ACCOUNTS THAT SOMEONE HAS OUT THERE BUT IF YOU STOP TO THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH IT WILL TAKE TO SERVICE THOSE ACCOUNTS (food cost, fuel cost, insurance, taxes,etc, etc) IT WON'T ADD UP.

If someone else before you has tried this and failed and there's apparently no one else to step in and fill that void, how is what you're doing going to be any different? If it were then how come more people aren't doing it and you're not seeing honor boxes everywhere?

I'd be willing to bet everything I own that these people that are responding to me in contrast are doing so because they have "another log in the fire" so-to-speak. They have businesses of SELLING HONOR BOXES TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER. Otherwise (and just think about this now) why would someone who is in business of doing whatever, be trying to quell something or someone (me) who would be saying things that would bring about less competition for them?

[thevendingbutler1]

BTW BobTHJ

I live in Knoxville, TN and this certainly has well over 100,00 people living here. If what you were saying were true: the fact that you only charge .75 per item (which in no way will ever cover for the theft rate) and you leave some of your boxes for 60 DAYS without servicing them and you can trust the people that much that you're only going to end up with 18% theft rate, then you would have to be living on another planet. Either that or you're just an outright conman. Common sense is telling me it's the second answer. Why would you be using the picture of the Godfather as the symbol for your screen name? In the movie, that guy was DEFINITELY A CONMAN. HOW DOES HE HAVE ANYTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH HONOR???

[rdendy]

The Con, the failure, the disillusionment or how one man can teach us all!

Gather around my children for a story told to teach us all a lesson:

There once was a man named thevendingbutler2 (All names have been changed to protect the innocent, certainly stupid and possibly retarded) he was at heart a good man, like most men he wanted more out of life, to be his own boss, to have freedom.

One day he was looking on CL/Classifieds/Ebay when he spotted a "TO GOOD TO BE TRUE" ad. It offered everything he was looking for, quick gold, fast and easy. So he called this angel from heaven, offering easy gold and big dreams, to find out more. After nary a couple of hours on the phone getting the details of this stupendous, this amazing, this one of a kind deal (not including the 100's of times it comes up again and again on CL) the young and ambitious lad felt he was ready to go. He had learned everything he could about the business in less time than it takes to wash a pet dragon!

So he parted with his hard earned money for some poorly placed honor boxes in really crappy locations, it mattered not that he should have asked "If these are so great, and such money makers why is this guy selling them?" no this young lad knew that even should he fail, it could never be his fault, if he couldn't succeed with this swell route the honest angel sold him and his vast experience of several hours, well then no one could do it!! It would never be his fault, no it would be all of the evil creatures in the land of TVF who would be to blame for his downfall, for they ALL were honor box sales guys.

With a twinkle in his eye and some pep in his step the young lad set off...

...Twas a mere 6 months and the young lad realized he had bitten of more than he could chew, his gold was gone and his prospects were few. Alas for the poor lad all of the honor box goblins had stolen his treasure....

The moral of the story is don't buy equipment or routes from professional sales guy who travel around getting a few hundred crappy locations in a week and then sell it to you for big bucks. Always ask why someone would sell something so valuable for so cheap?!? Also it's a good thing to come on here and ask around first, most of these guys can tell you if your being scammed.

Bob THJ and Rick stop trolling this guy, he obviously got conned and is bitter and looking to blame anyone for his loss. You guys trying to be nice and explain how and why you are succeeding is only pissing him off more. He has given up and isn't looking to fix his business but scream at the world to make himself feel better about loss.

Hey thevendingbutler1 if your looking to sell your route and equipment I can give you $50 for it???

[thevendingbutler1]

Redndy I built this honor box business all by myself. Go back and read from the very beginning of this post what I did. I think anyone can tell that just based on how you wrote that last post that there is definitely an under tone of mischief going on with with you that reflects dishonesty and dishonor.

You NOT someone that other people should put their trust in

[PerformaVending]

Redndy I built this honor box business all by myself. Go back and read from the very beginning of this post what I did. I think anyone can tell that just based on how you wrote that last post that there is definitely an under tone of mischief going on with with you that reflects dishonesty and dishonor.

You NOT someone that other people should put their trust in

I follow your logic to a degree, but you are arguing that your business' failure is the direct result of malevolent external factors, and that these factors would inhibit the honor box business model from working for anyone. I sympathize with your losses, but isn't this a little overboard? I sincerely doubt that seasoned vendors like BobTHJ, DogCow, Rick or a bulk operator like Rdendy have any ill wishes for you, let alone that they are members of a "conspiracy" to con anyone out of anything.

[thevendingbutler1]

No I never said that they are targeting ME. I'm saying first off that this business can't stand alone as a full time career for anyone. There are certainly cons involved in all this. Almost every person who goes into this business has VERY LITTLE information to go on. Where would you ever go to find out about the honor box business? Therefore they're either forced to fall back on what someone who sells honor boxes claims, order one of the online honor box business guides (with what they say) or come to a place like this online. I think therefore at least a number of people (and I know one in particular) do just that and make claims to others that this is a great business and that they can do this as a lifelong career. It really promotes their business for them while it hurts the other person who ends up wasting their money and time in something this stupid. There are people in these forums who are in effect targeting OTHER PEOPLE. They just didn't target me because I was sold (foolishly) into this business long before I became aware of this website.

BTW for those of you who want to call me a fool that's fine. I'd rather be a fool than a dishonest, cowardly snake in the grass. At least there's honor in being the one who gets conned.

[thevendingbutler1]

Also PerformaVending as far as the "seasoned veterans" that you are referring to go. NONE of them do honor boxes as a full time living

[PerformaVending]

No I never said that they are targeting ME. I'm saying first off that this business can't stand alone as a full time career for anyone. There are certainly cons involved in all this. Almost every person who goes into this business has VERY LITTLE information to go on. Where would you ever go to find out about the honor box business? Therefore they're either forced to fall back on what someone who sells honor boxes claims, order one of the online honor box business guides (with what they say) or come to a place like this online. I think therefore at least a number of people (and I know one in particular) do just that and make claims to others that this is a great business and that they can do this as a lifelong career. It really promotes their business for them while it hurts the other person who ends up wasting their money and time in something this stupid. There are people in these forums who are in effect targeting OTHER PEOPLE. They just didn't target me because I was sold (foolishly) into this business long before I became aware of this website.

BTW for those of you who want to call me a fool that's fine. I'd rather be a fool than a dishonest, cowardly snake in the grass. At least there's honor in being the one who gets conned.

Again, I'll say this: you are blaming your business' failure on external factors beyond your control. I believe that in the absence of good information, you should proceed at your own risk. I didn't have any resources when I got into bulk vending, and I made tons of mistakes. I still make mistakes. The big difference is that I learn from them, and change my business to grow from those mistakes. Yes, I could sit around bemoaning how some guy on eBay conned me out of $100.00 for a van full of scrap metal, but I didn't. I knew the risks, and I took them knowing full well that it might not work out for me. So, I changed my plans, changed my business and moved on. To say that Snack boxes cannot be a full time career is simply untrue- by using a dynamic strategy and some exceptional sales skills, I'm certain the Snack Box industry can support a person. Now, I will say there are easier ways to get to that income level, but to say it is impossible is false.

[PerformaVending]

Also PerformaVending as far as the "seasoned veterans" that you are referring to go. NONE of them do honor boxes as a full time living

I did not say that they had. However, they are all vendors who know a thing or two about this business, and "were" trying to help. Saying that their rebuttals to your original statement are invalid based on one point of your argument makes precious little sense in this context.