A few words on behalf of locators...

[bulkboy]

There seems to be a groundswell of opinion that paying any money upfront to a locator for their service is unjustifiable.  While I, too, think having a machine in place before paying is desirable, I do not feel it is reasonable.  Perhaps, like me, many of you are old enough to remember when all self-service gas stations were pump first and then pay.  Unfortunately, times change and often not for the better.  While many services are indeed performed before payment is made, often times there is recourse if the customer stiffs the business owner.  For example, the garage will not release your car or the dry cleaner your clothes.  Notice how McDonalds always hands you your food at the drive-thru only after you have paid.

My point is that there are a lot of dishonest vendors among us.  I am reminded of a conversation I had many months ago with Marjorie, the former owner of Midwest Locators.  She decided to do a spot check of locations which vendors had reported as underperforming; locations for which she had provided replacement sites.  She was shocked to learn a large number of these underperforming machines had, in fact, never been removed.  In other words,  vendor's were stealing from her. 

There is a natural tendency to assume that everyone who posts on a forum is cut from the same cloth, that everyone thinks like we do.  But just like a military uniform washes out individuality, so does the internet.  There are liars and cheats, wife beaters and saints among us.  Unfortunately, however, policy usually has to be written with the lowest common denominator in mind.  Furthermore, consider who has the short end of the stick.  If a vendor steals from a locator, chances are there will be no post on this forum alerting the other locators not to do business with that individual (by the way, Marjorie said she knew the Vendiscuss identities of some of the guilty).  However, we all know the firestorm that erupts when a locator missteps.  Make no mistake, the feedback on this forum is priceless.  I would just like to offer a reminder; there are lots of dishonest people, some locate and some vend.

Stan

[Jax Snacks]

Well said Stan.  There are bad vendors as well as locators.  There will always be risk in every transaction and determining who will “go first” can be a big deal.  There are also processes (usually spanning days or weeks) and there are events (usually done in a few hours).  Going to a restaurant is more of an event and it really doesn’t matter who “goes first”.  The customer orders a meal and when dinner is over the customer pays for it and the restaurant usually doesn’t worry about getting stiffed.  Buying gas is also an event since the transaction is completed in a minutes and it doesn’t really matter who “goes first”.  Although, I do remember as a kid my uncle being furious about having to pre-pay for gas and was personally insulted by it.

However, locating is a process and not an event.  So the party that “goes first” is usually at a disadvantage in a process type situation.  Much like the visiting team in extra innings of a baseball game or the loser of the coin toss in college football overtime.  The team that “goes second” has the advantage.  The problem is that both sides can not “go first” or “go second” at the exact same time.  Both teams cannot be on defense at the same time.  Of course sometimes “going first” is an advantage like in professional football overtime.  But none the less, someone must “go first” and the other must “go second”.  Sometimes a classified ad will not list the price of an item and will ask for an offer.  Why?  Because the person who "goes first" and throws out the first number is often at a disadvantage and the seller knows that.

So back to locating and vending!  Who should “go first”?  The vendor pre-paying or the locator accepting payment terms?  Well who ever does “go first” is at a disadvantage.  So what is fair to both sides?  I guess every one will have an opinion.  A 50-50 split?  A coin toss?  A 3rd party arbitrator?  But IMO, having the vendor pay 100% upfront is very unfair and I will no longer do it with an unproven locator.  I have only pre-paid for locators with positive feedback from established members (with more than a few posts).

I don’t have an answer to this dilemma.  Other than one party must assume the risk of “going first” and that party should minimize that risk with a small order with the hopes of building a relationship with the other (and hopefully ethical) party.  Hmmm. I wonder how Donald Trump would negotiate with a locator?  Could be a new reality show for The Donald! 

Jax

[bulkboy]

Reminds me of the old business adage...he who mentions price first looses.

You make some good points, Jax, that I omitted.  Seek out those worthy of your trust.  That's where this forum is invaluable.  Reputation is vital to a business.  That is why I feel the locator has more to loose than the vendor.  And I certainly don't advocate paying full price up front.  At least not until a healthy relationship is established and perhaps, even then, only in the interest of negotiating price.  As is done with many building contractors, paying half up front seems a good compromise.  Thanks for your input.

Stan

[BudLeiser]

The sad part is, the one locator that offered 1/2 up front is the only one that screwed me.

[lurtsman]

Of locators and locating

This has been brewing on my mind for a while now. I haven't yet had a bad experience with a locator. (We'll see how MW does with low revenue replacements, but they handled my kick out replacement well so I'm expecting them to do the same again) I've also seen other people having very bad experiences with locators. This reminds me of how some people seem to have perpetually good or bad "luck" in relationships. The relationship contains two people, and if you're not respecting the locator, they won't respect you. It's a two way street. Therefore, I wanted to propose some thoughts for new vendors who are considering hiring a locator, to help them make sure they are doing it right from there end. This has been stimulated more from watching how people treat each other, rather than experience with locators. I've heard too many women claim that they don't need to make a meal for their husband, or men making jokes about their wife's weight. The most important thing in those relationships, is that the two people involved are both happy with what they are getting from the relationship, and take ownership for their own decisions. I work at a library and volunteer at a hospital, so I hear many things that are none of my business.

Here is my advice for new vendors:

1. Start with small orders. 5 machines or less.

2. ONLY use someone who has been vouched for. DO NOT use a random company you see on craigslist.

3. You run a for profit business. So does the locator. Respect his costs. Do not waste his resources. You should be clear on expectations up front.

4. If you get rejected from a location, let the locator know exactly what happens, they have staff and they can not be everywhere.

5. Always act as a professional, but not a gopher. Give respect, and it will be given.

6. If you want to negotiate, ask for more, don't try to give less. The difference is simple. I'm willing to open up vends on candy, but I won't use a dime mechanism. Their profit requires receiving a fair price from you. If you need a better deal, try to get extra locations thrown in. Maybe you have a spare triple, or a GB machine that has been sitting in the corner while you focus on your doubles. It's better to ask for a freebie added on, then to reduce the number of the machines.

7. Refrain from asking for a refund as a first response. If you feel they are not responding adequately, tell them what you would like, but be reasonable. Remember that not all companies give refunds, so pay with a credit card. If they act reprehensibly, then you can challenge the bill and it is pretty easy to get the charge reversed even if they disagree. This is a last resort, and it should never come to this if you've picked a respectable company. (I've challenged charges on my cards twice, won both times, and both times the company was completely void of integrity. Give them an opportunity to make things right. As long as you have seemed reasonable, they will find it MUCH cheaper to make the small correction to your order, rather than deal with the hassle of someone taking a large refund.

8. Post how things went. Companies that take good care of you need the word of mouth advertising. It's more effective than them spending money to advertise, and reducing their cost allows them to charge less and make the same profits to live on. The companies that misbehave, may correct their behavior when they see the damage it is causing their reputation. The forum is the best place possible for ensuring that success is earned by treating customers well, and not by finding ways to mislead customers or steal their retirement accounts.

9. As a reminder from earlier points. Don't flood them with phone calls. Squeaky wheels get the grease, but annoying rattles get smashed. When you talk to them, you should have a VERY clear goal. Short concise e-mails let you keep track of what you have said, and avoid interrupting them to ask for a status report on why they haven't found your location yet. The worst call I've made was to ask for a manager's name when I forgot to write it down. In general, I know they are not my secretary and won't ask them to be.

10. Go to bed at a reasonable time. I need to work on this one. It's not really relevant, but it's a good reminder. People can act hasty when they feel tired. If you feel emotional, you may want to let an e-mail sit for a bit before you send it.

I've worked with two locators, and both treat me very well. I make sure to follow these guidelines when dealing with them, and it has worked well. It reminds me of a book my wife has on how to marry any man she chooses. They are strategies that worked on me, and the sentiment is true. Pick a good locator (check reviews, no history is as bad as a negative one), and then make sure you do your part to keep the relationship healthy.

[caserri]

A measure of respect goes out to you on that one lurts.

Good job!

[nepavend]

This is a great topic that shows what the locator's situation is.  I apprecite this as well as my partner spent the better part of his early career as a top locator for some big name early vendors such as Gabriel, Ashland, and even some for Folz.  In every case, they are up against some of the same obstacles from vendors big and small.  There were cases where he was being "Charged back" for location kickouts/etc at a certain flat rate (I think it was 25%), even though he came to find out his install rate was well over 90% several years later.  You can bet that he was more than a little POed about that when he found out. 

There was another case where several smaller vendors out West wanted smaller orders of 20 locations at a time or so, he would travel out there only to have them cancel last minute, and not covering his travel expense.  Some vendors were flat out brutal in their dealings with him to the point now where he only does steady work for one other vendor in another area we are not present in, and for anyone else he will require up front payment for locations plus expenses for the first time dealing with any vendor. 

The vendor mentality on the whole is that vendors are cheap, usually too cheap to pay anything for new locations from locators, and end up putting themselves out of business by not investing enough time or money in the life blood of the business, the churning in and out of new locations, whether bought through a locator services, or self-located.  I heard a lot of stories from him of vendors who had 1800 locations or more at one time down to almost nothing because of this.  We are currently buying equipment from one of them which gives me first hand experience with this person and the mentality I am speaking of.

[whistle]

well Jax.....i believe that your right on Everything youve said....being 1st is usually in the worst spot....But....IF we could just All learn to be fair and communciate this could work....its very difficult to point the finger because there are bad people on both sides....i still believe that the locator has the Main responsibility here because they are getting paid for their services....they should get paid 50% upfront then the rest after they have met the requirements of the vendor....the vendor should get a location that makes a certain amount of money....and if not....the service should either give a percentage of money back or continue to relocate the machine until that percentage is met....and you would think that if they dont start or continue to service the vendors.....then the vendors will soon channel them out....which has happen already....then they will be out of a job....

im really surprised that the vendors here havent yet banned together and worked out getting there own locating service here among All of the vendors here!!  just a thought....since im a newbire here....it seems that getting the *right* or *best* location is the most important thing to do for your business...period....lets try and get this together so we can All be rich!!

maybe i should get into the locating service and get together a staff to go out and try to get everyone on the same page....that doesnt seem to hard to do with alittle communciation and the right change attitude...

Whistle

[Jax Snacks]

Never make the mistake of trivializing the nature of any business - including vending.  Vending is not easy.  Locating is not easy.  One big mistake make by newbie vendors and locators is to assume that this business is soooo easy that, "Even a Caveman can do it"!  Many vendors and locators have come and gone with that attitude.  Warm bodies alone that make the phone calls will not cut it!  The business owner will need a valid strategy, perseverance and the talent to execute the strategy.

Jax

[bulkboy]

well said, Jax, well said.

Stan

[Mr_H]

2. ONLY use someone who has been vouched for. DO NOT use a random company you see on craigslist.

Kickstart has been advertising on CL in my area. In fact I saw their CL ad before joining this forum and didn't know what to think. Now that I've joined the forum I know they are a sponsor and I've read mixed reviews. I'm still in the information gathering stage I plan to have a route up and running before the end of the month.

[Poplady1]

Lurtsman if we were bulk locators I would work for you in a New York minute.  Blue Moose has a pretty good reputation for finding good locations.  The truth is we find good VENDORS, once we get them on board we partner up with them and work our butts off for them.  We can solicit any size business in our areas knowing we have vendors that will show up, make a professional proposal and we can close it.  Thats the secret in full line. 

You nailed it in your response.

Bev

Blue Moose

[whaletail116]

Bev,

Can you tell me exacyly how Blue Moose and other locating companies go about locating machines for others?  More specifically, bulk candy machines...

I'm under the impression that it's all done over the telephone.  The locating company calls up businessess from the vendors area and gives their sales pitch? 

I've seen on some post that the actual owner of the machine is supposed to "pretend" that he/she is just the delivery person.  How does that entire interaction work?

I'm new to bulk candy vendind.  Purchased two already located machines and placed three on my own.  I'm interested in working with a locater once I learn more.  Please help!

Thanks,

Greg

[lurtsman]

Bev doesn't do bulk machines. She would be a tome of wisdom in regards to locating full line machines. On the note of delivering machines, you should make it so quick they don't have time to wonder who you are. Acting as a delivery person is very reasonable, primarily it is to prevent a stupid vendor from talking about how he makes a great deal of money with his charity stickers. Stupid vendors waste the time and resources of good locators, similiar to how stupid (thieving) locators waste the resources of any vendor they can catch. My premise that bad locators had the intent to steal comes from the fact that if they are smart enough to market their abilities they won't be a bumbling fool, while an incapable vendor is still going to be able to pony up a credit card and hope for the best--then blow it when he walks into the location. Have you read the suggestions by Rob from kickstart? They are a good place to start. I don't use exactly his drop off lines, but it is pretty similar. Something you should practice is side stepping questions about the business, being able to appear incapable of talking and setting the machine up at once--use this if the questions are too annoying, otherwise it's a good time to build rapport--if they come over to talk to you. If you need topics, talk about why the charity is important to you. Here is my TRUE story. Less than two years ago a personal friend of mine was diagnosed with cancer. He had it in his throat, but he never smoked or chewed tobacco. He wasn't even 25 yet, and was recently engaged. I pause for a bit. The doctors had to perform some incredible surgeries, they went in under his chin... it was a great way to minimize the scars from the procedure, and he made a full recovery. His wedding was wonderful, and I'll never forget how close cancer came to ending my friend's life. I'm glad I can be involved with a company that helps people have a fighting chance.

I've only had one location where it came up, but it is good to have a story ready about how cancer has affected you. They shouldn't have any reason to ask how the program works. "Hi, is xyz here?" "Hey, xyz, it's a pleasure to meet you. I'm abc (hold out name tag- get one, they are worth it), I think you got a call about us bringing a machine by?" At this point they'll usually say "O, with children's cancer group?", and you say, "yes, that's right. Where would you like me to put it?" If there is an OBVIOUS best location you can say "Maybe over here?" Be very gentle, even if it means taking a less than ideal spot. You can always see about moving it later. They know how traffic flows in the location better than you do -- though they will tend to know far less about how the machine does it's marketing. Don't bring up how much you know about which part of the location would be best, you're goal is just to have a polite and humble interaction with them.  While your gone, they can be comfortable with your machine. It is easier to suggest a change after being there for two months.

Bob Butler used to be a regular here, and he hated charity vendors. Different vendors have different shades of grey they are willing to tolerate. I don't know what the locator (midwest/kickstart) has said to the location. I don't ask them about it. I judge them on the ease of delivery for me, and the quality of the location (being low risk and high reward, no ghetto locations please, I don't want my machine stolen during the monthly hold up) A single location can not reflect the entirety of a locator's business, however over time you will notice trends towards how the location expects you, and the quality of the locations.

To go more in depth on pretending to be a delivery person. This causes issues because there is a question of how much does the business know about your business, and how much do they have a right to know? If they create a wrong assumption, is it your place to correct them? Who has that right, or that obligation? It creates flame wars on here occasionally, and my theory has been that I will grow my business and feel good about what I do. I'm glad I'm supporting a charity, and I'm glad my business is successful. I run racks also, and I enjoy the racks as well. All around, I simply love vending.

Does this answer your question whaletail?

[whaletail116]

Hey Lurtsman,

I suppose I'm not sure.  I really appriciate you taking all the time you have to help me on this matter.

It just seems as if the locaters aren't being completely truthful with the businesses.  I don't want to place any of my machines under any false assumptions.  Donating to a charity is something that you should WANT to do, as you said.  I'm getting the impression that people are using the charity stickers, which they donate $1 for each, and passing the machine off as revenue makers for the charity, and not themselves.  I don't want the business owners thinking the charity is getting most of the profit when they're not.  That's bad business, and it seems that is what the locaters are flaunting.  Am I wrong?

Do you recommend commission vending?  Again, I only own a handful of machines.  A couple of which I have placed on my own and a few of which I have purchased from another operater.  Thus far, none of them are based on charity or commission. 

Could you please add any other thoughts if I'm not 100% on track?

Thanks and have a wonderful afternoon!

[Poplady1]

I had to give you a respect point for that answer.  I read it too and learned alot.  I have talked to several bulk locators.  Some seem somewhat shady but others also just try to do the best job they can and hope everyone is happy.  Thanks for the lesson  Bev

[dsimms]

I had to give you a respect point for that answer.  I read it too and learned alot.  I have talked to several bulk locators.  Some seem somewhat shady but others also just try to do the best job they can and hope everyone is happy.  Thanks for the lesson  Bev

I do not think anyone can afford bad locators. It would better for their

business if they were just legit, which could result in repeat business...

[Poplady1]

In the perfect world all business would be good.  I do think this forum gives a lot of information on trying to protect yourself from poor performing locators. 

[Faith Vending]

If you are just the delivery person who is that on all the paperwork, has a phone # on the machine and answers the phone when your cannister is empty. IM experience the owner I am talking to really likes the thought he is talking to the owner of my business who delivers, sets up, cleans, services, keeps product fresh and filled, drives all over town putting out fires, answers the phone, shines his shoes and basically kisses his a... all for free or to make HIM money. What a deal. I think you should tell a business owner and future partner exactly who you are from the start.

Jim

[whaletail116]

Thank you, Jim!  I agree 100%.  You've had some really informative posts for me lately and I want you to know that they are all appreciated.

[lurtsman]

Commission locating is great. I am happy with charity locations also. I'm simply huge on vending, because it has provided me with an opportunity to make money without relying on the local employment market.

[sweetlady0665]

Hello Stan,

Thank You for your post.  I consider myself to be a placement specialist.  Locator is a bad word.  I am honest and work hard to have happy customers.  I do not make customers pay me upfront.  I work in person.  You can always refuse any location I come up with.  Unfortunately in this business there is not a lot of gratitiude.  I make money for operators and locations and very rarely do I even get a thank you.  I fight so hard to get into a location to make someone I do not know money every month.

I appreciate you standing up for us.  We are not all bad.  Some of us do it professionally and actually care about their customers and would do whatever it takes to make them happy.

Thank You,

Pam