Healthcare reform

[alyssamma]

Kai I have zero clue what that post means.

[kai1836]

I was in the office today and there was an article on yahoo. It was talking about the amendments the republicans were proposing to vote on in order to slow down the reconciliation process. One of these was a proposal to remove the provision that provided government funded erectile dysfunction drugs to convicted sex offenders. The democrats voted the amendment down, in other words, voting to fund viagra and other types of erectile drugs to be bought and given to convicted sex offenders by the government. I was bringing this up as a half joke but its actually a serious deal. Our gov't (Both sides) is so screwed up at this point its laughable. So in this context I was sure we could find some common ground!

[alyssamma]

We can find common ground in your statement that our gov is screwed up on both sides.

To be perfectly honest, this thread has been painful for me. I feel like Michael on Godfather III...it keeps pulling me back in.

I see so many serious problems with this country. Yet, time and time again people get worked up over relatively minor things. I've stated before I don't like this bill. In fact, I would have been happy if it didn't pass - I own a tanning salon and now I'm about to be hit with a 10% tax.

I also want *true* healthcare reform - lower premiums, coverage for all, quality care. Forgetting about all politics for a second, let's say a bill like that could magically pass. We win the Spanish Lottery, or hook up with a Nigerian prince. The results would still be horrible. Why? Congress can't agree on anything. When the Reps were in power, they did stuff and the Dems said they were unfair. Now the Dems are in power and they are doing the same things the Reps did and now the Reps are crying foul.

Nothing productive can be done through 1/3 of our gov. Everything is reduced to a political argument. If "our" side didn't come up with it, then it is bad.

But that is only half of the problem. The private sector is ready to take advantage of whatever is passed. No matter how "good" of a bill can be passed, HC companies will find loopholes. And individuals will find ways to take advantage of things.

Think about it. We live in a country where people committed fraud with respect to 911 - either saying they lost people they didn't to get $, or preying on those who did receive $. What does that say about us as a people?

When I see this thread, and instead of debating facts and issues people are name calling and making wild generalizations and assumptions, it truly saddens me. Of course now I see all of the violence that is aimed at the congressmen who passed the bill. I don't even know what to say about that.

Kevin

[jamesjmcgough]

After following this thread on health care..I was pondering how much was spent on that bogus endeavour, how may lives were squelched... which proved to be a scam?

Sometime in the future we as Americans(and Ex-Pats) may put our view of government dollars spent "for the good of our society" into a proper perspective. You would not believe what the rest of the world is thinking about this whole circus act we are performing.

Just my opinion. Seems the circumstances don't shine brightly on the good old USA image we have always wished to use to promote democracy.

[jamesjmcgough]

I guess the expense of a fraudulent war has been "over 4,200 dead and 30,000 wounded". And over Three Trillion Dollars spent with not even a hint of socal redemption or security?

When questioning the new health care plan cost, would anyone wish to make an economic comparison?

[kai1836]

  Can't neccessarily defend the war, however two wrongs don't make a right.  I was in a bar in Havana,Cuba when it started in 03......I was against it from the start!!

[bacho]

So what you are really saying is you have a problem with the Democratic party or with the President?  Or just black representatives and Presidents? (the elephant in the room) Fox certainly has a problem with all of the above and John Stewarts program has much higher ratings then Fox.  Most young voters under 35 get their news from Stewart because they feel he is believable(?)...and those younger people vote.

There is nothing in this health bill that should concern anyone about health care.  All of the public assistance and public options was stripped out of it.  The only winners here would be insurance companies receiving all of the new clients. Insurance companies will no longer be able to turn down someone with a preexisting conditions with some premium caps, they cannot drop a insured that becomes ill and children will be able to remain on their parents policy until they are 26 or working. Cobra benefits will be extended for unemployed workers, tax credits will be given to people that cannot afford insurance (how many poor people do you know that needs tax credits against their poverty income) and everyone will be required to carry some type of insurace or pay $750 a year (62.50 a month) and basically that gives you the right to walk into any hospital in our country for medical service which will be covered by taxpayers (which is the current process).

I would support you and your cause if you would be willing to stand behind a strong public option to run right along side the for profit insurance companies. Now that would be the type of change this country desperately needs in my view .

Bev

Bev, please don't play the race card with me. It won't work. I have nothing against the President, just his radical agenda. If you want to support socialism, be my guest. I don't know why Democrats have to revert to racism when they can't win an arguement.

John Stewart? Wow! That's what's wrong with this country today. The younger generation gets the news from a comedian. No wonder we're going bankrupt.

Read my prior post on why the insurance companies are going to be the loosers. In 2 to 3 years there will not be any private insurance companies.

Unfortunately my cause was not heard by the President and this Congress. The polls showed the majority of the people didn't want this passed. The President went against the will of the people and he will pay dearly for that mistake in 2012. Congress will pay for it come November. Transparency doesn't exist in this administration. The supposedly bi-partisan meeting that took place was just a show. He wrote an executive order with no ideas from the Republican party. How can you support a president with such arogance? He could care less about you, me or the next guy. It's all about power. It will take a decade to undo al this guy has done in one short year. He has to be stopped or we will never get him out of the office.

[Poplady1]

Bacho, please explain what you mean with this statement "He has to be stopped or we will never get him out of office"

Was I playing the race card against you Bacho?  Seems like you read a lot of polls maybe you missed that poll which states 76% of the Tea Party members say Race plays a major role in their distrust of this President. And no I am not saying you are a Tea Party member.

Comparing the profit margins of independent family owned vending operations against insurance industry margins would not have made the point.  Hence comparing profit margins of real vending companies with employees over 100 would be realistic.  Maybe I should have said major vending companies.  I certainly did not mean to insult hard working vendiscuss companies.

At this point, the votes have been counted.  I will continue to push for a public option because I believe that would be best for my country and fellow citizens.  I had been a Republican all of my life until a friend suffered a health tragedy and I saw first hand what happens when insurance companies want to dump you. American citizens should not face losing their savings, home and independence because of a failing Kidney.

I am now a independent voting only on issues.

Blue Moose

[bacho]

I'll be happy to explain that. There are three steps to becoming a dictator. First is socialism...which we are at right now. Next is communism and then it's dictatorship. Do some research on these countries:

North Korea

Argentina

Cuba

USSR

Nazi Germany

No, I missed that poll. I sure would like to see the source of their polling. The Tea Party Movement is a real big obstacle for Obama to overcome right now. That's why you hear about all the so called violence commited by these people. The news media is running with beliefs, not facts. There isn't any creditable journalist left in this country. It's all a big tabloid. Nobody has been arrested for any of these crimes. Cantor, who is a Republican, had his widow shot out. Was that a member of the Tea Party?

All I'm saying is to look at the big picture. Listen to the message. If you can have an open mind and eliminate all the hype from both sides, you will see what I'm talking about.

[bacho]

Oh, one other thing. Can anyone tell me why this bill is so great? Can you tell me why Congress and their staffers are exempt from it? Why is Obama still campaigning about the bill when it already was passed?

My opinion is that it is not all that great, otherwise they would be forced to take it like they are forcing the people of this country to do. That's just my opinion though.

[alyssamma]

I'll be happy to explain that. There are three steps to becoming a dictator. First is socialism...which we are at right now. Next is communism and then it's dictatorship. Do some research on these countries:

North Korea

Argentina

Cuba

USSR

Nazi Germany

Bacho, you bring up some good points in some of your posts - for instance your post about Congress being exempt. But posts like the above quote make it hard for you to be taken seriously.

We are far less of a socialist country than most of Western Europe and Canada. Are you saying they are about to become dictatorships?

I think that would be a far stretch - England, Holland, Canada...not even close.

So how would it work for the US?

Also, Cuba had Batista - about the closest Capitalist friend the US has ever had. He was overthrown. Castro became a dictator. There was no progression like you mentioned.

Also, my High School history might be a little off, but I don't remember Nazi Germany ever being communist. In fact, I remember them *fighting* Russia which was communist.

Similarly, I don't remember Russia being a socialist state before it went communist.

If you truly study history, what you'll see that government censorship, fascism, and spying on citizens are all precursors to a dictatorship.

Kevin

[joebob051977]

I have so far contstrained my strong political views by not engaging in this thread. I am a fairly strict Constitutionalist. I believe that the role of the U.S. Federal government should be to provide for the common defense and well-being of the Union. Prior to the Healthcare issue, I felt that the Federal government had overreached with entitlement programs. It should be the role of each state to decide on entitlement programs not the Federal government.

Social Security has turned into a huge entitlement program. I shouldn't have to subsidize poor retirement planning.

Welfare allows people to get a paycheck and not work.

Medicaid and Medicare also allow people to be irresponsible with their money. Once again, I am paying for poor planning

I hate the fact that I am responsible and take care of my financial business, yet have to subsidize people who have lived high on the hog and now have no money. Or paying for people to sit on their butts doing nothing but sucking off the system. What made this country great was the fact that you can start from nothing and become something, or if you start our with something and don't do a thing you will have nothing. You determined your own sucess. 

[Faith Vending]

It's funny a majority of the country did not favor this bill. It was jammed down our throats by bribery, lies, smoke and mirrors and flat out corruption. How can anyone deny this fact? Just cause everyone does it does not make it right. Now we are onto saving everyone in trouble with their mortgage and facing foreclosure. We continue to reward failure, stupid decisions and non-producers. Not the way to become a great country.

[davidsurvz]

Was I playing the race card against you Bacho?  Seems like you read a lot of polls maybe you missed that poll which states 76% of the Tea Party members say Race plays a major role in their distrust of this President.

OH PLEASE.... AND WHO CONDUCTED THE POLL... JANEANE GAROFALO

[davidsurvz]

It's funny a majority of the country did not favor this bill. It was jammed down our throats by bribery, lies, smoke and mirrors and flat out corruption. How can anyone deny this fact? Just cause everyone does it does not make it right. Now we are onto saving everyone in trouble with their mortgage and facing foreclosure. We continue to reward failure, stupid decisions and non-producers. Not the way to become a great country.

ATLAS SHRUGGED............

[whaletail116]

Jim, if you ever run for President of the U.S.A., I'll vote for you.

[davidsurvz]

Jim and Joebob,

I agree with your sentiment.

I do not believe laziness, incompetence and ignorance and irresponsibility should be catered to or rewarded. These things have consequences and people should for the most part have to face those consequences. People learn from their mistakes and failures how to overcome and move forward in their lives. People also learn from their successes. I believe we should help people when and where we can when they really need help. I don't think we need the government to do that in general... but I digress.

I am not saying that everyone who wants this health care "reform" is any of these things but there is way too much "social spending" in our deficits. We are not a socialist country we are a constitutional republic. And yes I do think that this administration is leaning towards socialism with communist ideology more than most people probably will admit. But that is not my point.

We the people still have rights and freedoms in this country. As our government takes more and more of our money and creates more and more "social spending" with more and more regulations.... WE LOSE MORE AND MORE OF THOSE FREEDOMS. It is just the way it is. I am sure that there are people who would say that is a crazy idea but common sense tells you otherwise. You can't have that much taxation and that many social programs and that much regulation and have it not restrict your freedoms. Ask anyone who ran a business 40 years ago if there is less freedom now than there used to be. Ask people who used to enjoy hunting and fishing 50 years ago if there is less freedom today. This is how it works, gradually over time our freedoms decrease....... taxes, fees, fines and regulations increase and "social spending" increases. And that is a simple illustration of how our freedoms get taken away by this kind of legislation. I will not sit here and explain this in great detail. I don't need to and I don't have time.

So you people who say "this health care bill hasn't taken away our freedoms."  It is just another step in that direction. This overhaul is HUGE and there is a ton of regulation and restriction in it. You honestly think that the government doesn't see this as the first step towards "universal health care" Obama said it himself. This is the first step towards "socialized medicine" Or (single Payer) The people who are pushing this have said so themselves.

This plan is being pushed through by an administration head who said he wants to "fundamentally change America!"

Nuff said!!

[Poplady1]

I actually agree with some of your points David.

Things change in a democracy, nothing stays the same in life.  There was much more hunting when we had much more wilderness.  Business many years ago was less complicated because business 40 years ago was much smaller and local.  As you franchise you have more laws.  As you incorporate you have much more responsibilty to your workers and your country. As things grow you have a need for more rules.

Compare having more children in your family.  As each child comes you lose less space and freedom but you gain so much more in other areas.  Meaningful areas.  Even if you move to a larger home, you have lost extra income in paying for a higher mortgage but now you have more room for more children.

The insurance industry had gotten to a point that the general population was no longer benefiting from the services offered to them.  We had to make some changes for the benefit of the whole.  No one is claiming the sun will burst out of the clouds leaving a huge rainbow for everyone to enjoy.  But things are now much better for millions of people.  Insurance stock is up ticking on the stock market as they look forward to their new future.

Bev

[Faith Vending]

Jim, if you ever run for President of the U.S.A., I'll vote for you.

I think you have bought into Obama mania.

[whaletail116]

I wouldn't consider myself someone that follows politics too closely, but yea, I'm starting to buy into all the hype.

[bacho]

Kevin

Bacho, you bring up some good points in some of your posts - for instance your post about Congress being exempt. But posts like the above quote make it hard for you to be taken seriously.

Obama wasn't taken seriously either and look what we are getting. There's alot of people that I talk to that say this is not what they voted for. I tried to warn them but they just laughed at me. They are no longer laughing.

We are far less of a socialist country than most of Western Europe and Canada. Are you saying they are about to become dictatorships?

I don't know about the other countries. I don't follow them as closely as my own. These countries have socialized health care incorporated in their countries. I find it amazing that people from those countries are coming here to get the operation they needed there. They are put on a waiting list anywhere from 6 months to a year. That's called rationed health care. This is what will happen here. With a little common sense you will be able to see that. Adding 30 million more people to the system will overload the hospitals and doctors. If you thought waiting 4 to 6 hours at the ER was terrible, you haven't seen anything yet. You'll be given a pain pill and sent home.

Also, my High School history might be a little off, but I don't remember Nazi Germany ever being communist. In fact, I remember them *fighting* Russia which was communist.

Germany was a communist country before Hitler gained power. He was just a lunitic that wanted to rule the world and it didn't matter who or what you were. Now I'm not saying Obama is another Hitler but he sure does go around the world apologizing for this country's actions. He promises that he will change the country and the world. USSR, known as Union of Soviet Socialist Republic. You are right, it never was a socialist country but was ruled by Czars. Obama has ten times more Czars than Bush ever had. He's ruling the country, not governing it.

If you truly study history, what you'll see that government censorship, fascism, and spying on citizens are all precursors to a dictatorship.

Libarals have be trying to censor conservatives for decades but haven't been able to do it legally. They will eventually push the fainess doctrin through with their arogance like they did the health care bill. Fascism is a harsh word. I wouldn't say he is a fascist. Spying on citizens is already incorporated with this bill. There will be a nationwide data base with all your private health records. In other words any doctor, or nurse, will have access to your records. Up to now, the only way you could get another persons records is if you signed a consent, releasing your records. This is a private thing between you and your doctor. Now the government will be able to see all your private data. For example, the IRS will be enforcing the pentalties for proof of insurance. They will have access to all that data. They plan on hiring 16,000 more agents to do this.

[Faith Vending]

I wouldn't consider myself someone that follows politics too closely, but yea, I'm starting to buy into all the hype.

It will be interesting what you will say when you get the bill

[whaletail116]

Bah...! Humbug!

I'll survive.

[whaletail116]

I forgot one of these....

Smile, Jim!  Try it sometime!

[Faith Vending]

I'll be smiling after November 2010. There is power in knowledge; educate yourself on the issues.