Healthcare reform

[kai1836]

  Kevin,

    Hey, look from the past time here on the board I really like you and can respect that we have different points of view. That being said this will most likely affect my personal lifespan in a negative way. I have severe health issues and will most likely be denied needed care down the road due to this bill.

  2.  This universal health care everyone seems to love so much doesn't do what you think it will. Instead of some having excellent care most having poor care and some having none the passage of this bill will make us all have mediocre to poor care due to the extra strain on our current supply of medical care providers and the lack of incentive for medical doctors to keep practicing in this country.

Had universal healthcare existed when I was born I never would have made it past being still born. My carcass would have been thrown in the trash can. If you doubt that it took three injections of adrenaline in my heart to bring me to life, on the off chance someone would have broken the rules by the second injection I'm sure an IRS agent would have shut the whole thing down.

[T BIRD]

Kevin.........( Aly )..........take a step back my brotha.  And think for a minute.  Is there any government run program in operation today that the people of this country think works well?  Come on......the answer is no.  And...............when you look around the world Kevin..........is there a government run health care system in place that runs smoothly that the people of those countries embrace and are satisfied with?  Come on.  The answer is a resounding no.  I totally agree with mission vending and faith vending.  Let the marketplace take care of all of this.  Allow the insurance companies to do business anywhere.  Let them compete with each other for us.  And get rid of this pre existing condition rule.  Make that point the law to discriminate because someone has HIV, cancer, Hep C, or whatever.

This is a free market democracy isn't it?  Capitalism is the engine that has brought so much success to this country over the years right?  Obama is a total leftist, socialist, and whatever other coined phrase you want to label his far left philosophy leanings to be.  And that other space cadet ( Madam Speaker Pelosi )?  The country should be ashamed of themselves having this 1960's throwback as the leader of the house.  When I simply look at her?  I cringe and am embarrassed at what comes out of her mouth.  She would love a public option. etc etc.  They should all move to a wealthy suburb of Venezuela.  They would feel right at home.

I knew in my gut that to elect Obama was a grave mistake in terms of his leftist leanings.  Healthcare takeover, car company takeovers, and what is next to take over?  Whew.  I am done..........

[alyssamma]

  Kevin,

    Hey, look from the past time here on the board I really like you and can respect that we have different points of view. That being said this will most likely affect my personal lifespan in a negative way. I have severe health issues and will most likely be denied needed care down the road due to this bill.

  2.  This universal health care everyone seems to love so much doesn't do what you think it will. Instead of some having excellent care most having poor care and some having none the passage of this bill will make us all have mediocre to poor care due to the extra strain on our current supply of medical care providers and the lack of incentive for medical doctors to keep practicing in this country.

Had universal healthcare existed when I was born I never would have made it past being still born. My carcass would have been thrown in the trash can. If you doubt that it took three injections of adrenaline in my heart to bring me to life, on the off chance someone would have broken the rules by the second injection I'm sure an IRS agent would have shut the whole thing down.

Kai, thanks for the reply. And thanks for giving an honest answer instead of an attack. I don't think anyone knows what will end up happening if the bill passes. However, the *intent* is to do the opposite of what you are suggesting. And, that is what I sincerely hope will happen.

My only evidence comes from my time traveling. I've traveled pretty significantly and have friends in many different countries. Countries where they have Universal Health Care. All of them are very happy with their system. None of them say anything "bad" like what you imply (non-treatment of the very sick) happens. All of them can't understand our system.

Now, that being said, a few caveats...

1) Of course I am a liberal, so many of my friends are too. In this case I would say 80% are, but there are 20% that aren't and feel this way.

2) I'll admit that no system is perfect. In other countries there are bound to be cases where "bad" things happen. But you need to look at the whole picture and not a few data points. Any system, including ours, has outliers.

Again, thanks for the answer. And I believe we can come up with a Universal Health Care system where everyone is treated and treated well. I'll agree that this plan isn't it (for one it isn't Universal), but it is a first step.

Kevin

[alyssamma]

Kevin.........( Aly )..........take a step back my brotha.  And think for a minute.  Is there any government run program in operation today that the people of this country think works well?  Come on......the answer is no.  And...............when you look around the world Kevin..........is there a government run health care system in place that runs smoothly that the people of those countries embrace and are satisfied with?  Come on.  The answer is a resounding no.  I totally agree with mission vending and faith vending.  Let the marketplace take care of all of this.  Allow the insurance companies to do business anywhere.  Let them compete with each other for us.  And get rid of this pre existing condition rule.  Make that point the law to discriminate because someone has HIV, cancer, Hep C, or whatever.

This is a free market democracy isn't it?  Capitalism is the engine that has brought so much success to this country over the years right?  Obama is a total leftist, socialist, and whatever other coined phrase you want to label his far left philosophy leanings to be.  And that other space cadet ( Madam Speaker Pelosi )?  The country should be ashamed of themselves having this 1960's throwback as the leader of the house.  When I simply look at her?  I cringe and am embarrassed at what comes out of her mouth.  She would love a public option. etc etc.  They should all move to a wealthy suburb of Venezuela.  They would feel right at home.

I knew in my gut that to elect Obama was a grave mistake in terms of his leftist leanings.  Healthcare takeover, car company takeovers, and what is next to take over?  Whew.  I am done..........

T-Bird, come on, you can do better than this. Your post is full of personal attacks (not against me, but against the Dems). Let's keep this about the issues.

To answer you...

1) I've stated that the gov has issues. But so does any large company. If you Q is do I think the gov can run health care better than it is being run now, the answer is 100% yes. People have to understand that we trust the gov every day to do things for us. The incompetence we see there is everywhere. People, in general, are stupid. Some stupid people end up in gov, some in the private sector. But the gov has run Medicare/Medicaid for some time now so it has a little experience with this.

2) I disagree 100% with your saying people in other countries aren't happy. See my previous post. I have *direct* contact with people from these countries and they are very happy with their system and would not like to switch.

3) But again, this is missing the point. The bill doesn't provide Universal Health Care. It doesn't say everyone must join a gov run plan. In fact, it is the opposite. Take a look at England. Thier system has a gov run plan *and* allows private insurance. Most people choose the gov run plan.

4) Would you like the soldiers of our country to no longer have gov run healthcare since it is so bad? Or how about our congressmen?

5) And lastly, no, this is not a free market demo and cap hasn't brought good things to life here. If that was true, there would not have been a bailout.

6) And, just to drive the point home, if this was a purely cap society, free market and all, we wouldn't have child labor laws, social security, civil rights, or many of the other "leftist" things you see to be against

Kevin

[kai1836]

  Congress won't have the same plan. Have you ever been sick, I mean really sick Kevin?

[alyssamma]

LOL, trust me, I know - Congress won't have the same plan. I was refering to an earlier post when lolaus said whatever is passed, congress should have to live by it. That would insure something good passes

But to answer your Q...luckily, no. I'm not sure what you are trying to imply, but I've always said that America is the best place to get sick in if you have $ or really, really good insurance. Otherwise, it sucks. I *think* you might have been hinting at something similiar.

I've had (or I should say *have*) people close to me who are sick. I'm not sure what you mean by "really" sick, but I am guessing cancer counts. And I have a brother in-law with diabetes who can't afford his medicine so he gets sicker. And a sister-in-law who can't move and needs a back operation and her HMO says she needs to wait 1mo for it.

I'm not trying to compare these to your illness - esp. since I don't know what it is. Like I said, I have been lucky enough to have been healthly for most of my life. And ditto for my 3 kids. My wife has severe migraines which knock her out of commission for 2-3 days every couple of months, but that is it.

Kevin

[kai1836]

  my sister died of leukemia after a 16 month battle. My family whom most would consider "rich" had no help dealing with this. My father paid those bills for years. I doubt he regretted one penny he spent. I hurt every time I breathe. I cough up blood on a regular basis and will never be healthy. I have experienced both private insurance and gov't insurance. Let me tell you its not pretty. Our current system isn't pretty but the one we're heading towards is even worse. When push comes to shove this system will let me die. I resent that and find it unacceptable.

[alyssamma]

Kai, why do you think it will let you die? Is it because you think there will be a priority and the very sick won't be treated?

Hopefully that will not be the case, but i can't say for sure. One thing, however, I am sure of is that *private* insurance will never go away in this country. People who have $ will always be able to pay for the best care. In your case, this is what I suspect you will chose, so other than perhaps paying more, nothing should change for you.

And remember, nothing in this plan is getting rid of private insurance. In fact, just the opposite - there is no gov run plan here (at least not initially).

Regardless, thanks again for sharing your opinion based on actual things instead of stuff heard on the TV.

Kevin

[kai1836]

Are you listening to this "woman" on tv? Like she gives a golpher about the people in this country!!!    She's been in Washington so long she wouldn't even recognize a real person if she saw one. I can't believe this. Healthcare isn't a right. I have no right to healthcare. I have a right to life under the constitution, a right that this bill will threaten.  This is ridiculous. I have been denied surguries on your government healthcare plan. I have been doped up with painkillers and shoved out the door while still coughing up blood!!  This will only get worse. These assholes would rather give me a painkiller and hope I die soon than actually try to help me. And you who have never been sick...........I am glad my daughter is healthy I hope she gets a good education and then leaves.

[kai1836]

Kevin what they are passing is an expansion of medicaid........medicaid is government healthcare.  I hope you never do get sick, at least not while this law stands.

  I'm done here I think this is actually raising my blood pressure.  Good luck to anyone here who has to deal with the healthcare sysytem after all of this, you'll need it.

[alyssamma]

Whoa, Kai, no clue where this is coming from. First, I don't know who the "woman" is. Second, there is no gov plan that is *mine* - do you mean Medicare?

I'm not sure what I said to piss you off, but I take exception with your assertion that because I've never been sick I can't have a valid opinion about healthcare. I've never been a woman, but I believe in equal rights for women.

One funny thing...if your daughter does leave, she'll most likely end up in a country that has Universal Health Care

Kevin

[alyssamma]

Kai, correct, but it is a *very* limited expansion. And no one is forced to use it. How can that possibly upset you?

[kai1836]

A limited expansion???    What occupation are you in that enables you to make that call? And no your opinion of how this bill will affect people that are seriously ill is not valid. Your not nor have you ever been seriously ill by your own admission.  This is in fact a serious expansion of medicaid. The numbers are 32 million people are to be covered under this, that is a serious expansion. Furthermore I never said anything about equal rights for women. I'm watching Pelosi talk to the house. You aren't sticking to the topic here, Thats what the left does Kevin. You will take my very valid argument about healthcare and its expansion and spit out some line about believing in equal rights for women. Who mentioned anything about equal rights for women?

[davenj]

I believe people should have health care.  I believe people should have shelter, and heat and food and shoes.  And no system in history has ever better provided these things than our capitalistic system with the individual freedoms enabling a free people to make their own decisions.  I don't believe people should be able to enslave their fellow citizens to provide these things for them. 

This program is a baby step.  The administration and congressional leaders have so stated.  They intend much more and are insatiable.  We are being slowly boiled and tomorrow America will be a less free nation.  I view government with a wary eye, and view it more and more as the enemy.

I believe that view is healthy and that it is very American.

You never hear the current "leaders" of our government talk about individualism or liberty. But you often hear them talk of collective effort and collective goals and collective rights.  Those types of rights are gained at the point of a gun.

I'm hopeful for November.  I hope to see the largest turnover of House membership in history.  After having not been to Washington in over thirty years, I've made three trips to DC in the past six months.  I see more interest than I ever have, and I've been a political observer for a long time.  I for one, intend to be less of an observer, and expect to see more of DC, and Trenton and my own local township meetings. 

It is government at every level that is wildly out of control.  It's not someone else's congressman, or only the "other party" or the next town or another county that is the problem.  It is all of them.

There are moments, such as this evening, when it may seem difficult to be hopeful.  But that is only because we've had it so damn easy lately.  There were times in this nation's founding when the prospects for success were so bleak that todays problems seem joyous by comparison.  So I'm hopeful and wary, and increasingly involved.

That's one of the reasons I'm here, seeking to create my own business.  I want to make my time my own, and be free to pursue varied interests.  And I'll be damned if some board or committee or self-serving ***** in congress is going to tell me what type of health coverage I'm required to purchase.  I'll make my own decisions, as a still free American, as our constitution guarantees.

[kai1836]

219 to 212.....Stupak made the difference. November can't get here soon enough.  Goodnight.

[alyssamma]

Kai, you need to calm down and re-read what I said carefully. I am not changing the topic...I've stayed on point from the beginning.

My point about women was related to you saying because I haven't been sick I can't have a valid opinion about healthcare. I was making an *analogy*. Although I am not a woman, I can have a valid opinion about women's rights. By the same logic, although I haven't been seriously ill, I can still have an opinion about the healthcare system. And I can have an *educated* one as I've used what we currently have. By your logic, only criminals and victims could have opinions about the justice system. That makes no sense.

As for the Medicare expansion...it is for people who are at 133% of the fed poverty level. Yes, I call that limited. And it isn't *forced*. Are you really saying *no* healthcare is better than being on Medicare?

Kevin

[kai1836]

Kevin,

  Medicaid and medicare aren't interchangable terms.  This bill will trim Medicare and expand medicaid.  I'm not trying to argue a point based on analogies. I'm arguing a point based on being there. And yes I would rather not have medicaid than have this expansion. And I am not on medicaid now.  Kevin I wasn't saying you didn't have a right to have an opinion on healthcare, you don't have the right to tell me whats best for me.  You don't know me.

[alyssamma]

When did I say what was best for you? And what in the bill that was passed does that?

[T BIRD]

Well........it passed.  So here we go.  I am so very troubled for my 4 grandchildren who will shoulder this burden when they grow up.  Healthcare will now join Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security, as a government run entity that is mis-managed and broke.  It's time to go hunt down the bed.....good nite.

[jamesjmcgough]

I may just set back and watch this debate. Living in Costa Rica, we have some of the best healthcare in the America's. Both Universal Healthcare AND private facilities. I might add, at a fraction of the cost in the US. We have a huge medical tourism industry with private insurers in the US encouraging their clients to have intricate procedures performed here. You would not believe what those insurers are approving, such as rehab in medical spas, all transportation, meals, trips to National Parks, etc.

And, everyone contributes to their heallthcare. This universal healthcare system works while still giving you the option of private healthcare at extremely reasonable prices. Google, "Costa Rica Health Care System Choices".

[The Mage]

My only evidence comes from my time traveling.

Kevin

Time traveling?  You time travel?  Really?

NE NE NE NE NE NE NE NE  (Twilight Zone theme.)

My serious post will come later.

[Faith Vending]

Well........it passed.  So here we go.  I am so very troubled for my 4 grandchildren who will shoulder this burden when they grow up.  Healthcare will now join Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security, as a government run entity that is mis-managed and broke.  It's time to go hunt down the bed.....good nite.

T: you forgot Amtrak, The Post Office, GM, Cash for Klunkers it goes on and on.....by the way as a small business owner what burden will this crap add to you?...getting fined for not carrying health insurance for your employees; taxed or even jailed for not complying with this bill; raised taxes and further regulation on your business. Be sure these people in power now are dangerous....this is only the beginning; card check, cap and tax are next. Be vigilant...stop these idiots. We will be just another banana republic if Obama is not stopped.

[alyssamma]

Faith, you chose not to answer my questions

Also, if you have less than 50 emps, this bill has zero effect on you.

And where do you get your info about being jailed from?

[alyssamma]

All, Steve posted a serious, although "charged" question. It would be great if we could have a real debate about this, focusing on facts instead of nonsense statements (e.g., calling the speaker of the house a *****, or saying Obama is going to make us a banana republic).

Kai, although he got very upset, at least came to the table with some facts.

Kevin

[alyssamma]

And, for all of you who think the Post Office is a "failure" of government...that is very funny. You have a service that delivers and picks up mail to/from your house for half the cost of a can of soda. It was started over 200yrs ago by Benjamin Franklin and has survived the test of time. It has seen competition from the private sector from companies like UPS and FedEx. Still, it provides excellent service.

Is it having some financial problems now? Yes. Does that mean it is a failure? No. It simply means that times have changed and it needs to also - raise the cost of a stamp to $0.50, not deliver on Saturdays, etc.