Crane 960/460 Frozen Issue - Not Keeping Temp Cold

[RaleighNC]

Hi All -- I am just about at my wits' end here with my frozen machine not properly cooling. Please, anyone, help me! I've found a few previous threads with similar problems, here (this one was most similar), here, here and here. None are 100% my issue, but they help with connecting the dots of some things I have already tried.

Background - One Crane 960 + one Crane 460 held together by one control tower in the middle. When I first got this machine 6 months ago, the GFCI immediately upon entering defrost mode. I know it's not technically right, but the GFCI was removed and the machine hasn't had issues with it since. Gut tells me it was a bad GFCI, but this is potentially irrelevant to the story because it worked fine for 3-4 months until recently. Just wanted to include in case.

Main Issue - I can't get Cabinet 2 to stay cold. I've replaced a good amount of parts here over the past few weeks, but now it just feels like I'm throwing spaghetti and seeing what sticks. I've recently replaced the defrost heater element, the fan (with the updated 320 fan kit that goes into the duct under the bottom shelf instead of inside the cooling deck), the food driver board, and the temp sensor. Cooling deck was inspected and seems to drain properly. Compressor kicks on. New fan is running. I installed the new FDB and temp sensor yesterday thinking it would fix it and when I left for the day, it had already cooled from 75 to 5 in maybe 30 minutes or so. Temperature held until overnight when I got an alert from my remote sensor telling me that the temperature was too high (this is after it was unplugged for nearly a week, so definitely no residual ice in there). Last week, I noticed a bit of ice/frost on the foam-covered line in front of the cooling deck when you open the door and look into the bottom of the cabinet. Cabinet is definitely set for Frozen -10 degrees.

Whenever I go in, there are no defrost errors or other errors of any kind. However, I'm sure if I go in this morning it will have a "Selection 2XX out of service" and a health timer error because my temp sensor is telling me it's currently at 32 degrees which would have definitely triggered the warning. Last time I had this issue a week ago, when I came in, there was a loud draining/nearly "peeing" stream noise coming from inside the cooling deck. Nothing visible from the back vent area in terms of water going into the pan.

So what's left to check? Should I check the machine for low freon? Is there a triac that needs to be replaced? Possibly the comm cable or the main control board? Machine tilting a certain way for draining? Please help!

@AZVendor @lacanteen

Thanks,

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by RaleighNC

[Vendo Mike]

If you're building ice and not seeing defrost errors and your evap fans are new ( and known to be functioning at speed ), I would be double checking that the door gasket and any baffle system is sealing as well as your condenser coil clean.  Assuming that's good and your machine is not pressed flush against a wall, I would start looking more closely at your freon level.  If you aren't trained in refrigeration repair, you should hire someone to handle the troubleshooting and repairs as you can do more harm than good.

[RaleighNC]

4 minutes ago, Vendo Mike said:

If you're building ice and not seeing defrost errors and your evap fans are new ( and known to be functioning at speed ), I would be double checking that the door gasket and any baffle system is sealing as well as your condenser coil clean.  Assuming that's good and your machine is not pressed flush against a wall, I would start looking more closely at your freon level.  If you aren't trained in refrigeration repair, you should hire someone to handle the troubleshooting and repairs as you can do more harm than good.

Thanks Mike. You’re referring to the seal between the cabinet and the cooling deck that is sort of at the sloped angle when the deck slides into the resting spot?

How do I clean the condenser coil? Is that just the build up of lint and stuff on the front of the unit when you open the door sort of near the food driver board?

Definitely not a refrigeration tech so I’ll have my repair guy take a look. That’s going to be my next step here.

[Vendo Mike]

The condenser coil is generally at the bottom of the machine and the coil can be vacuumed.  Dirt, hair and all manner of other crap can restrict airflow and cause the unit not to cool correctly.  Since the unit pulled down from 70 to 5 degrees that quickly, I would assume it's fairly clean but it is something that you should watch and  maintain.    The seal between the deck and the cabinet can allow hot/moist air into the machine which will condense and freeze on the evap coil .  I have seen extra seals added which can press down on the evap fan assembly and not allow the fans to turn at speed.   Also, many frozen machines will have a "baffle door" that opens long enough to vend the product and seal back up. It's there to help keep the cold air in the cabinet and keep hot air out.   If that door system isn't sealing, you will find the same issues.  

Frozen vendors can be the biggest headache for those who don't have a strong grasp on refrigeration issues and maintenance.  

[RaleighNC]

42 minutes ago, Vendo Mike said:

The condenser coil is generally at the bottom of the machine and the coil can be vacuumed.  Dirt, hair and all manner of other crap can restrict airflow and cause the unit not to cool correctly.  Since the unit pulled down from 70 to 5 degrees that quickly, I would assume it's fairly clean but it is something that you should watch and  maintain.    The seal between the deck and the cabinet can allow hot/moist air into the machine which will condense and freeze on the evap coil .  I have seen extra seals added which can press down on the evap fan assembly and not allow the fans to turn at speed.   Also, many frozen machines will have a "baffle door" that opens long enough to vend the product and seal back up. It's there to help keep the cold air in the cabinet and keep hot air out.   If that door system isn't sealing, you will find the same issues.  

Frozen vendors can be the biggest headache for those who don't have a strong grasp on refrigeration issues and maintenance.  

Well, I popped by the location today and sure enough, there’s what we call a “North Carolina snow day” on top of the evaporator. About 1/4-1/2” of ice covering the whole coil. Spoke to my repair guy, he said it’s likely that the defrost isn’t coming on at all. Given it’s a brand new defrost heater element, he thinks next step is the triac. He said if it was low on freon then it wouldn’t have gotten down to temp so quickly and only half the evaporator would have been icy. 
 

Thoughts about this new information?

[Vendo Mike]

I would have expected a defrost error if it never engaged.  I believe there is a test function that would allow you to check that circuit including the triac.   I do agree that a low charge would make it very difficult to pull down that quickly.  I would thaw it out and then engage the evap fans with it installed to make sure they're functioning.  You should be able to remove the lower tray and look down into the evap fans from inside the cabinet.

[RaleighNC]

1 hour ago, Vendo Mike said:

I would have expected a defrost error if it never engaged.  I believe there is a test function that would allow you to check that circuit including the triac.   I do agree that a low charge would make it very difficult to pull down that quickly.  I would thaw it out and then engage the evap fans with it installed to make sure they're functioning.  You should be able to remove the lower tray and look down into the evap fans from inside the cabinet.

I wasn't thinking in the moment, but I should have tried a manual defrost with that much ice on it to see if it would have melted it away. The fan is running, it's this kit: https://www.dsvendinginc.com/p-8467-ds2900-ap-320-evaporator-fan-motor-kit-replaces-oem-16700016.aspx that was just replaced yesterday.

 

Good point about the defrost error with the triac. I ordered one just in case and good to have a spare I guess.

 

I spoke to Crane customer service and the gentleman mentioned that when it's usually white ice like that, similar to snow, not like hardened thick ice, that it's probably more likely an air leak. I'm going back this afternoon to check where the baffle door meets the glass and ensure I can't fit a dollar bill through the gap. I don't believe there is an air leak around the cooling deck, but I didn't check the baffle door area. I know you mentioned this in your first post, but I had forgotten by the time I got on location and saw all that ice!

Edited April 21, 2022 by RaleighNC

[RaleighNC]

Yep, in front of the machine currently. The seal between the baffle door and the glass door is in great shape. Couldn’t even fit a dollar between the two. 

[RaleighNC]

So update. Checked the seals and seem intact. Inspected what I could see from the seal around the evaporator fan where it meets the underside of the cabinet and that seemed fine too. As I mentioned, I couldn’t even fit a dollar between the baffle door seal and the glass door seal. 
 

However, this picture is the amount of ice left from when I got there from this morning and unplugged the machine. I manually ran the defrost cycle and the compressor cut off as expected and the defrost LED came on but it didn’t appear to defrost anything. I took a video for all 8 mins during the cycle (that’s all it ran, which I was told by a Crane tech that if it runs for less than 20 mins it’s thinking that stuff is melted, so take that for what it is) and there was zero change from before and after. I’m not sure how much ice/frost is supposed to be reasonably melted but none came off. 
 

Given this is a brand new heater element, I’m still thinking triac which I’m not sure how to replace but it comes in a few days. 
 

Any more guidance?
 

 

[AZVendor]

You probably need to replace the defrost bimetal harness. It's stopping the defrost cycle too soon.

[RaleighNC]

7 minutes ago, AZVendor said:

You probably need to replace the defrost bimetal harness. It's stopping the defrost cycle too soon.

Great, i will call D&S in the morning. Where is this found in the unit? inside the cooling deck near the defrost heater element?

 

And also since i already ordered a new triac, i might as well replace that too. Is this found close by to the bimetal harness?

Edited April 22, 2022 by RaleighNC

[AZVendor]

Yes it is.  It comes from the relay box and is clamped around one of the freon lines inside the evaporator box.  There weren't any triacs on the AP versions which I am most familiar with and which Crane renamed to the 960.  While Crane loves to use Triacs I don't think there is one in this machine unless they redesigned the cooling unit somehow.  In fact, I find no reference to a Triac in the 960 manual.

[RaleighNC]

5 minutes ago, AZVendor said:

Yes it is.  It comes from the relay box and is clamped around one of the freon lines inside the evaporator box.  There weren't any triacs on the AP versions which I am most familiar with and which Crane renamed to the 960.  While Crane loves to use Triacs I don't think there is one in this machine unless they redesigned the cooling unit somehow.  In fact, I find no reference to a Triac in the 960 manual.

Very helpful, thank you. I will tell D&S to cancel the order since they sold me a part that doesn’t exist on my machine. 

Will replace this part asap and see if it helps my machine stay cold! Thanks!