My KSL issue...

[sherlock]

Friday, Rob with KSL sent me an email stating someone with my charity had filed a police report about a possible "scam" going on.

Rob and I decided we would suspend KSL's locating efforts until we found out what was going on.

Today I spoke to two directors with my local charity and was told that, according to two seperate business owners, a KSL locator was very rude, unprofessional, and uncourteous to these business owners.

The charity filed the complaint with the police as a "scam" because each of the two business owners stated the caller repeatedly confirmed she was an employee of my charity...even gave herself some official title like the charity's "charity organizer" or something of the sort.

KSL was reported as the caller because their phone# was obtained by a business owner using Caller ID during the call.

My charity never thought it was me or someone working for me making the calls since the caller was passing herself off as an employee of theirs.

And when the police contacted KSL, KSL never explained their relationship with my company.

To make matters worse --- now the charity is drawing-up a revised vending agreement disallowing me from using locators (KSL or otherwise).

I don't blame them since KSL has likely hurt my charity's public perception with more than the two business owners that filed the complaint.

To some, this may not seem like a big deal, but I don't view my charity vending like some others.

My charity vending is a cause I am very close to and is with a local group.

My charity does not even have a vending program...my agreement was set-up directly with the director and specific to my vending company in order for me to help them in the manner I wanted to help.

Now, I fear I may have turned them off to charity vending altogether.

In fact, if my vending agreement is not canceled over this, it will probably only be because the director knows my sincerity in wanting to help -- rather than my being a vendor just looking for ANY charity that will help me turn a profit.

I am supposed to hear from my charity later this week to set-up a meeting to sign the revised vending agreement.

Still, I fear the charity will have a change of heart and cancel the agreement rather than revise it.

So far, Rob has apologized for hurting my relationship with my charity as well as for any wrong his locator may have done.

However, the only option he has presented to me is that I change my charity.

Don't know that he can offer anything else, but that recommendation will probably not work.

I am not just looking for the easy way of charity vending or for making maximum profit for my company when it comes to my charity vending.

I actually need to have a personal tie-in because my wanting to help the charity must be sincere.

Some months back, I posted on vendiscuss that working with locators was my least favorite part of the vending biz.

I count on them to supplement my locating efforts --- so, I feel I do need them to a certain extent.

This incident has done nothing to improve my perception...quite the contrary, in fact.

I'll keep you folks posted.

[lurtsman]

Thank you for sharing your experience Sherlock. I'm sorry to hear it went so sourly. Please keep us updated as events unfold. I hope you can find another way to efficiently get your machines on location and helping your charity. If things go south with your charity, have you considered what other routes you might take?

[sherlock]

Thanks folks.

If they cancel my vending agreement, I'm in a position to switch all of my good charity spots to commission and most of my so-so charity spots to no commission/no charity.

It pays to develop a decent relationship with your locations...for those of you that sneak in/out during servicing.

But, I will be saddened by the loss of my ability to help my current charity.

If instead they just take away my ability to use locators but allow me to keep my vending agreement, then I will PROBABLY limit the growth of my charity route by only replacing charity locations as I get a machine kicked out or convert a charity location to commission.

Unfortunately that means I will not be increasing my donations to the charity much, if at all.

I don't like locating for charity much.

Since that can be done by phone successfully, I only do it occasionally.

I let locators do the majority of my charity locating because I prefer using my time locating commission spots in person.

But, my being stripped of my ability to hire locators for my current charity means I'll either have to stop growing my charity route, locate all my own charity machines, or find another charity to support....none of these options appeals to me much.

[Profits]

How could this have possibly gone so wrong that the business owner called the police?

Sherlock... Let's hear what's being said that's getting these business owners so riled up.  "Rude, unprofessional, and discourteous" don't sound like effective locating tactics.  Sounds pretty odd to me.

[sherlock]

How could this have possibly gone so wrong that the business owner called the police?

Sherlock... Let's hear what's being said that's getting these business owners so riled up.  "Rude, unprofessional, and discourteous" don't sound like effective locating tactics.  Sounds pretty odd to me.

The business owner(s) did not call the police.

My charity called the police based on a possible "scam".

They thought it was a scam because the business owners were calling to complain about an employee of my charity.

This lead my charity to believe someone was committing a phone scam because she was pretending to be one of their employees.

One of the directors I spoke to this morning was the person that spoke directly to the two business owners whose complaints lead to this ordeal.

I don't know that she was providing me with exact quotes from the business owners.

I didn't ask for her to elaborate as it was all a pretty embarrassing situation for me and my company.

But, the words I used in my post were the words she used.

She also mentioned more than once during our conversation that the businesses were unhappy that the caller was very pushy and overly persistent in her attempts to have the business accept the machine.

[Profits]

Sounds like one hell of a sh*t storm.  :'(

[mizugori]

I went to place my first KSL location Sunday and I had a bit of an odd experience too - the business owner knew I was coming, and was pretty nice, but had no idea what charity I was with, in fact I think he did not even realize it was charity related. I had to think fast and talk commissions with him on the spot, which was NOT something I wanted to have to do on my first ever machine placement. Literally the second or third thing he said to me after I introduced myself was, "So, what's in it for me? What do I get out of this?" He really had no tangible knowledge of, or interest in, the charity aspect.

Now this could be a great thing, because I managed to turn it into a 'hey if you want to make some money let's put a few machines in here instead of just the one' and he was all for it. HOWEVER HE WANTS 50% GROSS! wtf. I kind of stalled him and I have to now think of a good way to approach the issue with him and explain that that's just not possible.

All in all if I can negotiate reasonably with him it could be a very profitable location, but that's a big if, and at this point it's pretty much just as much work as if I had walked in there myself and pitched the idea of placing some vending machines - so what I am paying $60 for? This was supposed to be a drop-off, not a difficult negotiation.

However, I have not gotten in touch with Rob yet so I will see what he thinks and what solutions he offers. I can't totally judge his work until I hear what he has to say about it. Also this is just my first location out of my order of 9, so the other 8 could be totally fine, standard drops, maybe this one was a fluke....? We'll see.

[candyman007]

Yeah, this is definitely an unfortunate situation and I've apologized profusely. 

Charities like the NCCS that have national vending programs explicitly allow locators to solicit on the phone. 

As I told sherlock, when we call a business we act as if an employee of his business and we let the business know what charity the machine supports.  I've listened to many call recordings in my life and we never say we are an employee of a charity. 

We can be sales people too, that's what we do.  Assertive, Yes, but we always use Sir/Mam and say Thank You for your time no matter what their response is. 

Regards,

Rob

P.S.  I was honest with Sherlock about what happened.  I feel like Obama trying to handle the Oil crisis.  What can you really do.  I take the blame for this one. 

[whaletail116]

You could terminate the employee.  Absolutely tragic that a simple locating effort needs police involvement.

[bostonvendor27]

Rob, sometimes your the bug......... sometimes your the windshield!!

[Poplady1]

It seems to me that Rob did his job for you.  It also seems to me if you are being fair to Rob if you put in more than one machine at that location that number of machines he is scheduled to place for you would also be reduced.

That is just my two cents.

Blue Moose

[mizugori]

Bev I have a lot of respect for you but you're wrong in this case.

I paid for 9 SEPARATE charity locations, and explained that my goal was to get 1 machine in 9 different locations, and then if they do well I can talk to the owners about adding machines or even moving to a rack. Rob also encouraged this. When I told him I wanted to place doubles he advised that I place singles instead so I could get more locations out there with the same amount of capital.

Also, I paid for CHARITY locations. I did not receive a CHARITY location. This business owner is not interested in charity at all. If someone paid you specifically to place a machine at a bar and you placed it at a gym, would that fulfill your contract? Or if they paid you to place a soda machine and then they showed up and the owner wanted a snack machine? Don't think so.

If I can work out a reasonable commission structure with this business, I will keep it and consider one location delivered. However, if he insists on unreasonable terms where I cannot make any profit, I will not place my machine and I will consider it a refusal to allow me to place the machine when I delivered - and expect a different location, which will not count toward my 3 free replacements, because this is not a relocation due to poor performance, it's a non-placement due to the owner not allowing me to place the machine as a charity machine, or at the very least my right of refusal (which is guaranteed per the KS warranty.)

[lurtsman]

Miz, that sounds right. If you can install something, it is one location delivered. If he refuses to deal with anything less than 50% of gross, it is a refusal. Rob is generally very good about this.

[antoniocinisi]

with all due respect but I dont understand why the locator should be paid more since he already got paid to do what he was hired for. if the operator is then capable of convincing the location to add more machines why does the locator deserve any money after that?it was the operAtor that did the talking and coinvincing for the other machine not the locator.as mizugori says when buying 10 locations thats what I WOUld expect too not 10 machines.

[Profits]

with all due respect but I dont understand why the locator should be paid more since he already got paid to do what he was hired for. if the operator is then capable of convincing the location to add more machines why does the locator deserve any money after that?it was the operAtor that did the talking and coinvincing for the other machine not the locator.as mizugori says when buying 10 locations thats what I WOUld expect too not 10 machines.

Exactly.  The locator gets you the location, and it's up to the vendor if he wants to work an up-sell.  If you have better sales skills than the locator, why should the locator be compensated for it?

Another example... let's say you ordered 10 single-head locations.  If you came into the location and sold the owner on having a 10 head rack, it's really none of the locator's business whether you place a 10 head rack.

If it wasn't the locator who busted his @ss to get you the 10 head rack placed, I'll be damned if the locator is going to get compensated for it.

I can't imagine a circumstance in which a locator would actually expect a phone call saying "That location took all 10 heads, so you've fulfilled your location obligations.  Thanks!"  Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[candyman007]

Just as an aside, we don't expect you to pay us if you upgrade a location on your own. 

I suggest to a lot of clients that they start with single/double and then upgrade to a rack if the location does well.

Regards,

Rob

[Poplady1]

Well Mizu if you and Rob had all of that worked out before hand then  of course you are well within your rights to install as many units as possible.

Bulk is a lot different then full line and I am learning more everyday....

Blue Moose

[Poplady1]

I am not a bulk locator but it seems to me all of the locators post their fees.  The fees are based on single head, triple head,. video games and racks.  If the locator charges you for a single head and you place a tripple or a rack it seems you should pay that locator more for the installation......but.....remember I am not a bulk locator.  Just a person thinking about getting into some bulk machines and wondering what I would do in that same situation...I think I would handle it differently but thats me.

Blue Moose

[antoniocinisi]

Well Mizu if you and Rob had all of that worked out before hand then  of course you are well within your rights to install as many units as possible.

Bulk is a lot different then full line and I am learning more everyday....

Blue Moose

so if you are hired to place a soda machine and the the location asks the operator for a snack machine how can you justify asking the operator money since you had no involvement with that location expanding besides what you already got paid for?how would that go anyways should the operator call you and say they wanted more machines heres another 300 bucks free and clear for you?i know you have expenses too but  you already got paid for your services.could you explain the logic please?

[Poplady1]

We are paid per machine installed.  We never know how many machines will be placed in a location until the vending company has done their walk through and contacted us to work with us doing a proposal.  We are much more involved in the process on full line then with a bulk set up.  Our average account closing takes approx. 3 months from start to stop.

And many of our companies will call us 6 months after install saying they owe us for an additional drink or snack installed in the account.

Blue Moose

[Profits]

We are paid per machine installed.  We never know how many machines will be placed in a location until the vending company has done their walk through and contacted us to work with us doing a proposal.  We are much more involved in the process on full line then with a bulk set up.  Our average account closing takes approx. 3 months from start to stop.

And many of our companies will call us 6 months after install saying they owe us for an additional drink or snack installed in the account.

Blue Moose

In a very involved process like full-line contract negotiations, that makes sense.

[antoniocinisi]

I am not a bulk locator but it seems to me all of the locators post their fees.  The fees are based on single head, triple head,. video games and racks.  If the locator charges you for a single head and you place a tripple or a rack it seems you should pay that locator more for the installation......but.....remember I am not a bulk locator.  Just a person thinking about getting into some bulk machines and wondering what I would do in that same situation...I think I would handle it differently but thats me.

Blue Moose

I understand your point there too.most likely what would generally happen is the single or whatever was paid for  goes in and a month or two or more and then  the operator upgrades ,how can you have any control over that?how would you handle it?

midwest found me a location in a town of 800 people and I refused the location because they had a rack in there already and that the location wasn`t going t make any money.less hen a year later the other guy got the boot and I swooped in,should I have called midwest and payed her?

[antoniocinisi]

You have to take every situation case by case basis Antonio..IMO

I supose this is true.this may be the only time an operator has the knife by the handle with locators perhaps.

in regard to how to explain what a rack is,when I try to locate a rack I tell people it is the machine that dispenses prizes in an egg shaped capsule that you usually see in walmart or kmart.most of the time it helps.

[Poplady1]

Antonio to answer your question concerning the Midwest question, I think they are out of business so that settles that question.  But if you were working with a locating company and you wanted your phone to ring first with the next available location, this would sure be a way of saying "work with me I appreciate your work". 

Blue Moose

[antoniocinisi]

Antonio to answer your question concerning the Midwest question, I think they are out of business so that settles that question.  But if you were working with a locating company and you wanted your phone to ring first with the next available location, this would sure be a way of saying "work with me I appreciate your work". 

Blue Moose

being you are a locator I was expecting a similar reply.by dodging the question i guess you feel that you should get paid?I understand thAT midwest is out of business,how would you handle that situation?lets say after 6 months after refuseing the location it opens up. you already found me the locations i hired you for,i go to the location to eat and i am able to locate a machine there,where does the locator fall into play?it just dosnt seem logical to pay anyone for my own smooth talking.for me its just a location up for grabs.now if i pay for a 5 way rack and a 10 way goes in instead that is bullcrap.if i pay 4 a 5 way and 3 months later my 5 way doesnt make it 4 the service cycle and is always empy,why should i pay you anything extra?it would make my want to make your phone ring first since u got me an awesome location,but thats all.

since there is no way to verify ,but knowing the kind of person you are,you are probably being honest when you say that people have called you to pay you for extra machines placed at locations you found.i am willing to bet these are longtime business associates that thanks to you have made hundreds of thousands and to them it`s no sweat to pay you a few hundred bucks.you probably wont get that (ecspecially since many see it my way)with bulk vending,with machines making a few thousand a year if that.

i wonder whAT ohers more experienced opeators opinion of this are?maybe we should split this topic?