So Tell Me Again, Why Do They Want to Ban "Assault Rifles"

[The Mage]

Wow, I missed some fun.

First of all, that link to gun policy is playing with statistics. It lists a death rate due to guns as 10.3 per 100K, but that includes suicide with guns. But suicide results in 12.4 deaths per 100K. About half of those are with a gun, and about half are not.

The homicide rate with guns is 3.6 per 100K, and the total homicide rate is 5.3. 68.1% of all murders in America are gun associated. Interestingly the gun murder rate is down, but the total murder rate is up.

(These are the CDC numbers.)

It should be pointed out that the gun murder rate in Canada is 0.5 per 100K, even though they have 10 million guns there. The total murder rate in Canada is 1.6 per 100K. Also in the UK it is 1.2 per 100K.

Also there is one underlying fact involved in all these statistics. Neither Canada, nor the UK, has a problem with their border like we do.

The murder rate with guns in Mexico is 14 per 100k, and their murder rate is 22.7 per 100K. This does have a leak over into our country.

Go further south, and the numbers are even worse.

Now look at the worst gangs in America. The Mexican Mafia, Florencia 13, Barrio Azteca, Almighty Latin King Nation, Trinitarios, MS-13, Hermanos de Pistoleros Latinos... etc. What all these gangs have in common, besides being on the FBI watch list, is that they are importing their violence into this country. Their ties are with criminal elements in Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvadore... etc.

The FBI estimates that gangs are involved with 80% of all crime in the US.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-01-29-ms13_N.htm

The third highest per capita gun ownership is Switzerland, and their entire murder rate is 0.7 per 100K

Ethiopia has one of the lowest rates of gun ownership in the world, in fact England/Wales has 16 times as many guns, but the murder rate there is 22.5 per 100k.

One of the big problems with the idea of banning guns is that it doesn't deal with the underlying problems. We are focusing on an object, and giving it the blame, instead of trying to figure out why people are killing other people, and how to change that.

To put things into perspective, the single biggest killer in this America is Heart Disease. Cancer comes in a close second, giving these two a total of 1.17 million deaths. (CDC 2011 numbers.)

3) Chronic respiratory disease - 138,080

4) Stroke - 129,476

5) Accidents (unintentional injuries)- 120,859

6) Alzheimer's disease - 83,494

7) Diabetes - 69,071

Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis - 50,476

9) Influenza and Pneumonia - 50,097

10) Intentional self-harm (suicide) - 38,364

Of the top 10 reasons people die, guns really are only about half of number 10.

These stats show that your child is more likely to die in the car on the way to school then to be shot at school. Or anywhere for that matter.

By the way, suffocation results in 3.1 per 100K suicides in America. How long before we focus on banning pillows?

[musser]

mage: One of the big problems with the idea of banning guns is that it doesn't deal with the underlying problems. We are focusing on an object, and giving it the blame, instead of trying to figure out why people are killing other people, and how to change that.

Thats the real problem isn't it.

I think (and the tea partiers will hate me for this) the general public has more "freedom" than it is able to handle. In my life we have gone from having a media controlled by the fairness doctorine and decency act to anything goes. One of the most outrageous things said in the recent gun debates was by the NRA that the media is responsible. Well the NRA is correct. Seriously if media had no effect on behaviour not one cent would be spent on advertising, but billions are because media changes behaviour. The NRA comment is outrageous because they too "advertise" that guns solve problems. There just seem to be no innocent parties in this, look at Michelle Bachman (sp?) "if we don't win at the ballot box we may need to reach for the bullet box" yep that helps.

I have no clue as to how to fix this by the way but at least in this thread we are respectfully disagreeing.

[dogcow]

Wow, I missed some fun.

First of all, that link to gun policy is playing with statistics. It lists a death rate due to guns as 10.3 per 100K, but that includes suicide with guns. But suicide results in 12.4 deaths per 100K. About half of those are with a gun, and about half are not.

The homicide rate with guns is 3.6 per 100K, and the total homicide rate is 5.3. 68.1% of all murders in America are gun associated. Interestingly the gun murder rate is down, but the total murder rate is up.

(These are the CDC numbers.)

It should be pointed out that the gun murder rate in Canada is 0.5 per 100K, even though they have 10 million guns there. The total murder rate in Canada is 1.6 per 100K. Also in the UK it is 1.2 per 100K.

Also there is one underlying fact involved in all these statistics. Neither Canada, nor the UK, has a problem with their border like we do.

The murder rate with guns in Mexico is 14 per 100k, and their murder rate is 22.7 per 100K. This does have a leak over into our country.

Go further south, and the numbers are even worse.

Now look at the worst gangs in America. The Mexican Mafia, Florencia 13, Barrio Azteca, Almighty Latin King Nation, Trinitarios, MS-13, Hermanos de Pistoleros Latinos... etc. What all these gangs have in common, besides being on the FBI watch list, is that they are importing their violence into this country. Their ties are with criminal elements in Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvadore... etc.

The FBI estimates that gangs are involved with 80% of all crime in the US.

http://usatoday30.us...1-29-ms13_N.htm

The third highest per capita gun ownership is Switzerland, and their entire murder rate is 0.7 per 100K

Ethiopia has one of the lowest rates of gun ownership in the world, in fact England/Wales has 16 times as many guns, but the murder rate there is 22.5 per 100k.

One of the big problems with the idea of banning guns is that it doesn't deal with the underlying problems. We are focusing on an object, and giving it the blame, instead of trying to figure out why people are killing other people, and how to change that.

To put things into perspective, the single biggest killer in this America is Heart Disease. Cancer comes in a close second, giving these two a total of 1.17 million deaths. (CDC 2011 numbers.)

3) Chronic respiratory disease - 138,080

4) Stroke - 129,476

5) Accidents (unintentional injuries)- 120,859

6) Alzheimer's disease - 83,494

7) Diabetes - 69,071

Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis - 50,476

9) Influenza and Pneumonia - 50,097

10) Intentional self-harm (suicide) - 38,364

Of the top 10 reasons people die, guns really are only about half of number 10.

These stats show that your child is more likely to die in the car on the way to school then to be shot at school. Or anywhere for that matter.

By the way, suffocation results in 3.1 per 100K suicides in America. How long before we focus on banning pillows?

#5 aside everything else on that list is things you do to yourself, not to someone else. i cant give you heart disease but i can shoot you. so why even bring it up its beside the point.

[The Mage]

#5 aside everything else on that list is things you do to yourself, not to someone else. i cant give you heart disease but i can shoot you. so why even bring it up its beside the point.

My 8 turned into an emoticon, didn't mean to do that.

Anyway, I am simply listing the to 10 causes of death, and being shot doesn't make the list. It actually doesn't even make it to the top 15 causes of death. What is 15? Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids.

The CDC only lists 10 on their website, and 15 in a PDF. Another site, that may be accurate, lists violence as #19. (#7 in Mexico.)

The point I am trying to make here is that we are not assessing risk very well, and it is this misplaced fear that is driving public policy.

If it is so important to ban guns to reduce deaths, then why not ban sugar and flour? Excessive consumption of these 2 items are linked to the first, second, fourth, and seventh causes of death. Make the speed limit 20mph and death due to car accidents will dramatically drop. Although both of these changes in policy would negatively affect our businesses.

But honestly, if sugar and flour were banned, Hostess would be resurrected as an underground business, and "speakeasies" would open up, but instead of selling booze, they would be selling cookies, cakes, and candy.

[sherlock]

But honestly, if sugar and flour were banned, Hostess would be resurrected as an underground business, and "speakeasies" would open up, but instead of selling booze, they would be selling cookies, cakes, and candy.

Oh yeah! That sounds like fun.

Then instead of Al Capone, we'd have Al Cakepone running the streets.

[dogcow]

If it is so important to ban guns to reduce deaths, then why not ban sugar and flour? Excessive consumption of these 2 items are linked to the first, second, fourth, and seventh causes of death. Make the speed limit 20mph and death due to car accidents will dramatically drop. Although both of these changes in policy would negatively affect our businesses.

maybe you are being obtuse on purpose the reaosn to ban guns is not to reduce premature death it is to reduce MURDERS.

you cant murder someone with a twinkie

[The Mage]

Thats the real problem isn't it.

I think (and the tea partiers will hate me for this) the general public has more "freedom" than it is able to handle. In my life we have gone from having a media controlled by the fairness doctorine and decency act to anything goes. One of the most outrageous things said in the recent gun debates was by the NRA that the media is responsible. Well the NRA is correct. Seriously if media had no effect on behaviour not one cent would be spent on advertising, but billions are because media changes behaviour. The NRA comment is outrageous because they too "advertise" that guns solve problems. There just seem to be no innocent parties in this, look at Michelle Bachman (sp?) "if we don't win at the ballot box we may need to reach for the bullet box" yep that helps.

I have no clue as to how to fix this by the way but at least in this thread we are respectfully disagreeing.

I've pointed out in my last post that the murder rate due to guns isn't very large statistically compared to other causes of death, but that doesn't mean I don't think we shouldn't do anything about it. But I think we should focus on all murders, not just ones using guns.

In my research, I did find that the gun murder rate in the 90's peaked at 7 per 100k, and now it is half of that. Now exactly why did it drop? There are more guns now then there were then, a lot more. But this was also a time when gangs were peaking, and the government really started hitting them hard. Though they have not eliminated gangs, they have actually been quite successful in weakening them.

But one big question is, will banning guns have any real effect on the murder rate? Following the election in 2008, 3.1 million more people bought guns in the following 14 months then the prior 14. But in 2009, the murder rate dropped by 7.4%. Also in 2008, the Supreme Court through out the DC handgun ban, and their murder rate fell by 23% in 2009.

If banning guns actually worked, this would not happen. We can point to the opposite where murder and crime rates climbed after a gun ban was in effect. (Both Australia and the UK experienced this.) Unlike the NRA though, I will not act like guns seem to stop all violence. But I will say this shows there is some other underlying reason for violence independent of guns.

Now you said you have no clue as to how to fix this. Well there are things that can be done. First and foremost is immigration reform, and better boarder control.

I know, we are supposed to care about the person jumping the boarder, but we forget they are jumping ahead of the person who has been waiting 2 to 5 years to get here legally. This system is fundamentally broken. We are making it too hard for the law abiding people to come here, and then enticing them to come here illegally by giving a wide range of benefits to those who do make the dangerous trip across the boarder. It is not just bad bad for us, but it is worse for the people who feel they need to sneak across the boarder to be able to make a living. The key here is not with more boarder laws, but with more relaxed rules for coming here.

With Mexico right on our boarder, it really makes sense for us to have programs that help move them to a more robust economy, and to help them root out corruption. (Rampant there.) And I don't mean throwing money at them. The corrupt politicians will just take it.

Next education makes a big difference, so creating a better system of educating people is paramount. After Katrina hit New Orleans, their school system was trashed, and as a result they turned to charter schools. Suddenly their graduation rate jumped. The African American graduation rate is 16.5% points above the national average, and even beats the rate for White Americans.

One thing that has annoyed me about politics is the total blindness everyone seems to have. I do not see any of the States examining each others policies to see what works and what doesn't. You can see something working in some States, and something failing in another, and yet politicians will chose the failed policies.

Unfortunately I am getting a little off topic, but it is all connected. People are so busy playing politics they can't see the real world, and sometimes try to hide it from others.

[The Mage]

maybe you are being obtuse on purpose the reaosn to ban guns is not to reduce premature death it is to reduce MURDERS.

you cant murder someone with a twinkie

But are you actually reducing murders by banning handguns? As I stated above when the Supreme Court overturned the DC handgun ban, their murder rate went down.

After the Columbine shootings, the Media was mistakenly, or falsely, reporting that it was the worst school mass murder of the 20th century. But the actual worst one was in the 1920's. The Bath school bombing which killed 38 people. He did use a rifle, but only later to trigger explosives in the back seat of his truck, which killed him, and another 4 people.

No you cannot stab somebody with a Twinkie, but you can stab, burn, blow up, poison, and beat to death others.

Again the focus is not on the murder, but the weapon.

In the recent school shooting, if he didn't have the gun, would he have not done anything? He could have chained all the doors locked, and threw molotov cocktails through the windows, or even pipe bombs.

Again bringing up Mexico, the murder rate there is 22.7/100K, while the murder rate with guns is 14/100K. That means 8.7/100K is done without guns. While in the US the total murder rate is 4.7/100K. Mexico is having no problem killing more people without guns then the US is killing altogether. (per capita)

[musser]

Well I suppose I shouldn't even post on this subject. I will change no ones mind anyway. But I think folks are just bscrazy about this subject.

First, the second amendment was about enforcing slavery through the instutionization of "well regulated" State Militias (the original wording referred to "country" ) but Southerners greatly feared that this would mean militias under the control of Congress so the wording was changed. State Militias at the time only existed in the South and the sole purpose was hunting down escaped slaves. Every white male was required to belong with the exception of "important" people, large land owners, judges, sheriffs etc.

The assault weapon thing is beyond my abilty to comprehend. What on earth does anyone need such a weapon for? Seriously if you are that afraid of your environment there are far bigger issues at play than owning a gun (any gun) will fix.

To all those stockpiling weapons ask yourselves something. Who is it that has made you so afraid? Who is "stirring the pot" and why. I really don't think many people here have had anyone clawing at thier windows or doors this week, or been run off the road, or shot at etc etc. There is something else driving this fear.

[dogcow]

But are you actually reducing murders by banning handguns? As I stated above when the Supreme Court overturned the DC handgun ban, their murder rate went down.

it doesnt matter, my point is, by bringing up gun murders isnt a leading cause of death you were intentionally distorting the argument its a common tactic in these kind of hot button debates, i think its necessary to at least try to be honest with what ur talking about

[dogcow]

The assault weapon thing is beyond my abilty to comprehend. What on earth does anyone need such a weapon for? Seriously if you are that afraid of your environment there are far bigger issues at play than owning a gun (any gun) will fix.

To all those stockpiling weapons ask yourselves something. Who is it that has made you so afraid? Who is "stirring the pot" and why. I really don't think many people here have had anyone clawing at thier windows or doors this week, or been run off the road, or shot at etc etc. There is something else driving this fear.

well said

In my research, I did find that the gun murder rate in the 90's peaked at 7 per 100k, and now it is half of that. Now exactly why did it drop?

legalized abortions, go look it up

[sherlock]

[Action Vending]

If they ban guns it will open up a black market bigger than the ones in prohibition.

It seems every time people aren't allowed to do something or have something, they want to do it more than ever before.

Maybe its human nature.

[mission vending]

i think its true when they wrote it but at that time the regular people had mostly the same weapons as the military even the most highly armed citizen doesnt have tanks,50mm anti arcraft guns, gps guided bunker buster missiles, drones, nuclear weapons,etc..etc.. the military has far superior weapons and nobody really questions that.

the fact is a coup is when the MILITARY decides to oust the leader, not the people which ever side the military is on wins.

look at syria vs egypt. in egypt the military was against mubarack because he forgot that the military really runs the country, he thought for a minute he was running things and the military showed him the truth by not putting down the uprising. now in syria you see what happens when a coup does not have military support, it turns very ugly even though many of the people are armed.

No question that it would get really ugly real fast if it came to citizens taking up arms against their government. I would hope that the mere prospect of the sheer chaos and turmoil that would be created would be enough for leaders on both sides (citizens and gov't) to find a nonviolent solution. If the citizens didn't at least have a significant ability to fight back then the leaders of the government have no reason to come to the table.

i agree with that and i think its the same with carry laws, obviously no one is gonna decide against robbing a liquor store because they dont have a carry permit.

i guess i am just expressing general frustration wit the culture especially in this area. a lot of people here i think see themself as clint eastwood or charles bronson they carry a gun around for no explicable reason. the thing is if you carry you need to be prepared for the consequences. in the next town over there was that zimmerman guy, now i know the area pretty well i have some route stops right near where that happened. its not really a bad neighborhood but its not great either, ive been in way worse areas of miami selling at street parades.

anyway this guy is facing spending the rest of his life behind bars. i dont care if thats right or wrong. i mean its not important to my point. the point is , he could have ended the night with a busted nose and hurt pride, but he pulled his gun and killed an unarmed kid and now he has to face the consequences. thats my point, if you carry a gun you need to be prepared to face the consequences of killing someone and i dont think a lot of gun nuts are really prepared for that.

To carry or not is a very personal decision and should not be made lightly. I think some of that is how ridiculously easy it is to get a CHL. I'm told that Texas has one of the most stringint laws regarding concealed carry, a 10 hour course and 50 rounds on the range at various distances to prove you can aim and shoot. IMO, the requirements to have the ability to carry IMO should be higher. A psych profile is not a bad idea, maybe even require proof of financial responsibility like you are required to have insurance to be able to drive your car on the road. Zimmerman is a great case in point of someone "going cowboy" and even if found not guilty this will impact the rest of his life and to be perfectly honest I have little sympathy for him, he choose to get out of his car.

We are focusing on an object, and giving it the blame, instead of trying to figure out why people are killing other people, and how to change that.

I have no clue as to how to fix this by the way but at least in this thread we are respectfully disagreeing.

Well said, I agree that we probably won't change each others minds but I think its good to have a conversation about hot topics of the day.

[donut]

Anyone listen to Tom Sullivan today? During his show, one of his callers was talking about concealed weapons permits and how after going through the training, the caller realized just how much liability one has when a gun is brought into the mix....

Tom mentioned that apparently only about 5% (or it might have been .5%, I didn't actually catch the whole statement) winds up carrying concealed after they take the training....

And you're absolutely right Mission.... Nobody here is going to change anyone else's mind... but I think it's good to listen to each other's points.... at least it makes us all think a bit more about the other side (whichever side you're on)....

I think I died laughing at this one......

[sherlock]

I think I died laughing at this one......

Thank goodness you didn't really "die" or someone would propose we ban animated gifs!

[The Mage]

it doesnt matter, my point is, by bringing up gun murders isnt a leading cause of death you were intentionally distorting the argument its a common tactic in these kind of hot button debates, i think its necessary to at least try to be honest with what ur talking about

I disagree. The distortion comes from people thinking it is a more common event then it is. We are talking about a 0.0032% chance event. But as I have stated before, that doesn't mean it is good, and I would like the murder rate to go down. But it still needs to be put into perspective.

Making it seem like a more common and rampant event then it actually is, is used to elicit emotions. The Media uses it to boost ratings, and politicians use it to motivate opinion, and push agenda. And we should never make decisions based on manipulation like that. (And all politicians, and political parties are at fault there.)

Instead it should be based on logical and rational thought. Something that is sorely lacking in politics.

[The Mage]

Ah yes, I can get caught up in a debate. But honestly I have fun doing it.

It does often seem like an exercise in futility, but I find it intellectually stimulating, and helps me to clarify my opinions and beliefs. I will also say that by engaging in these debates, my opinions have changed, but I attempt to keep an open mind when I am debating.

What people cannot see is me having 20 to 30 tabs open, and deleting arguments because I cannot find a credible enough source of data.

I started debating a little over a decade ago. I got so heavy into it I had to force myself to stop due to the time it was taking up. At one time I referenced everything I posted, until I realized nobody ever checked my links.

The forum I used to do this on was quite open to free speech, and unfortunately many would get quite nasty in their comments, and debates. If I saw a debate going down the trash heap, I avoided the whole thread. I always tried follow a rule that I was to act civil, and respect the other person and their opinions, regardless of how far down the gutter they went. For some reason there are people who think debate is attacking the other person, and calling them names, and belittling them. Some may remember one guy brought that attitude here, and got kicked off.

Anyway beating a dead horse is how you get tenderized horse meat.

[sherlock]

Anyway beating a dead horse is how you get tenderized horse meat.

Yes.

But, I think this horse is starting to turn...he's been dead a while now.

[Profits]

I was reading an article just now about the recent shooting in Phoenix in which a CEO of a company and his lawyer were killed. Here's a comment that I think hits the nail on the head.

[LandJGroup]

When there is a ban law imposed on our society for anthing it makes us do outrageous things to obtaining it. Ie prohibition drugs ect. This ultimately creates a black market that would make our "problem" worse. As many as you've stated the rest of the world that dose not allow citizens To arm themselves are pretty scary places. I Will keep my guns even the assault ones and carry everyday like ive done for years.