AZVendor Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 It's time to play "Stump the repair tech!" I'll preface this with: the machine was working when in it's last location 3 months ago, was just installed yesterday and is not working. I am working on a DN5800 that, after picking the product from the top row, will move the picker cup down as it moves right toward the discharge port. The problem is that by the time the cup gets to the discharge port, the cup is too low for the top edge of the clear cup to catch the top edge of the discharge port which would cause the cup to tip and let the can go through the door. The top edge of the cup arrives at the discharge door about 2 inches too low, stops then drops vertically about 4 inches and then after a few seconds retreats to home with the can and refunds the money. Additionally, if A9 is purchased, the cup arrives, picks the can and stops for about 5 seconds, then moves left about 1 inch and stops permanently. The only way to get it home again is to turn the machine off and then back on. I performed the Position Test and and have confirmed that the red, amber and green LED's are on at the appropriate times during the Position Test, including all three turned on when the cup is at home. The only error I had, and cannot recreate, is "Vend Vert," which means a Vertical Drive System problem. The only other indication of a problem is that when doing the Position Test, there is a constant "1" displayed after the two encoder counts, which the book indicates is a "switch or ground wire problem." The only ground I have tested is that there is proper polarity on the incoming power and no leakage to ground in that circuit. I know the "ground" that DN refers to is a logic ground. Good luck and let the games begin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris in bc Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Is this the guy from Arizona posting a question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted October 18, 2013 Author Share Posted October 18, 2013 Yup, this is Randy with Complete Vending Repair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris in bc Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 There is a switch under the product delivery cup that lets the control board know the product delivery cup is HOME. It could be covered in syrup-take apart clean..simple! The product delivery cup should be inspected for damage due to "kicking" a can or bottle off to the side. The "vend vert" error refers to the "Y" motor. I do not fully understand how there is a relationship between the Y motor and the "vend vert" error and I am not going to guess either. I take it you saw some "bounce, bounce bounce in the product delivery cup as it try to deliver the port on the right side and the machine was unable to deliver the product to the customer? I replaced the motor-about $100 bucks from Dixie- I only use OEM parts. Problem gone. I would also make sure the clear lexan in the port area where the customer retrieves their product is free to move, does not feel like it is resisting, obstructed...I think you get the picture. Also the motor on top of the port area ( where the customer gets the product from) should be inspected. This is my experience. This motor provides torque to the clear lexan in the product delivery area. Back off the top screws a bit. I also noticed the display was very "dim". I replaced the keypad, cntrl board and Y motor and never had any more problems! I hope this helps. If not call TIM WALLACE at Dixie tech support-this guy is sharp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris in bc Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Also-jump on the phone with Tim Wallace and do a "calibration" with him. Moving a machine...always calibrate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted October 18, 2013 Author Share Posted October 18, 2013 I know it's not the home switch as the 3 LEDs light up when running the Position Test and the cup gets to the home position. I think it might be a Y motor that runs too fast, lowering the cup too far, or an X motor that is too slow, taking too long to reach the right side of the machine. The Vend Vert error makes sense if the machine knows that the cup either never hit the door frame while moving down or perhaps the board knows the cup lowered too quickly, I'm just surprised that I haven't seen that or any other error again even though it won't vend. No, there is no bouncing of the cup because it's as if the cup knows it missed low on the door frame and it stops to think about it, then simply goes home and refunds the money. It doesn't even try to correct it having missed the door frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Shelf loc should be D on BevMax 2 ... Mode switch 2 times to test. Then F then the #8 All Bev max's have a sheet glued in side to give the shelf offset and hookswipe. Unless you have the new picker cup all original picker cups "Extended Cup" Should be off. Hookswipe should be default 93871........ If it slams to the right decrease the number.... If it won't touch or tap the right side increase the number Problem above may be the hookswipe not going far enough to the right so when it comes down to delivery door it doesn't catch to dump product in delivery port... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 At the top of the rail take the cover off and look at the small circuit board that has the motor and rail harness connected. I have found that the original board "GREEN" has cold solder joints in it. It should be BLUE What happens is the you will have erratic movement of the rail. You go out and open door and then everything seems to be ok and later that day you are back again. My theory is that board gets cold and contracts and when you open door because it is at the top it warms up and expands. So now you run test vends and everything is once again operating like it is suppose to. Until you close the door and leave and the board gets cold again. I have replaced this board many times and erratic behavior has disappeared. One other thing I have seen is the belt gets overtightened. I have seen where techs have stretched that belt tight enough that when the rails comes back to home it sometimes doesn't hit the home switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I know it's not the home switch as the 3 LEDs light up when running the Position Test and the cup gets to the home position. I think it might be a Y motor that runs too fast, lowering the cup too far, or an X motor that is too slow, taking too long to reach the right side of the machine. The Vend Vert error makes sense if the machine knows that the cup either never hit the door frame while moving down or perhaps the board knows the cup lowered too quickly, I'm just surprised that I haven't seen that or any other error again even though it won't vend. No, there is no bouncing of the cup because it's as if the cup knows it missed low on the door frame and it stops to think about it, then simply goes home and refunds the money. It doesn't even try to correct it having missed the door frame. The board has no idea if it hits the door frame... Think of the vend area as a piece of graph paper. Each square represents a certain number of rotations on the motor. Every vend starts from the home position. The count doesn't start until the home switch at the top and bottom leave home. So if either switch sticks the count doesn't start for that switch until it releases. When the switch sticks it will slam either the top or side. Whenever you make any adjustments make sure to always go to home before retesting. It really is very simple to visualize but still a little more complicated in a technical sense. Stopping mid way of the door is where it is supposed to stop. It is preventing someone from getting free product. It is just missing the hook. I think. It is hard to tell with no pic or not being there. This works for me.... The bevmax 4 has fixed most of the issues with the 2 and 3's. And now I believe is the best glassfront. Do not like the Vendo Vue nor the Royal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission vending Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 My first two suggestions are already listed, check the switch at the bottom of the cup and check belt/vert motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amigo Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Interchange the x & y motors and see if the problems change. But I agree that every time you move one you need to calibrate. I also agree with checking the switch on the bottom of the cup...can cause some crazy things to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted October 18, 2013 Author Share Posted October 18, 2013 Thanks to all of you, these were the directions I was headed. I'm pretty confident the home switch is good because the cup doesn't slam in any direction, it always goes to home and makes the switch and when in the Position Test and the cup is home, the green LED is on for the bottom switch and the amber light is on for the left side home switch. I tried to change the Shelf Offset because the cup looked low on the targets (I now don't believe it was). The book says the default should be 9200 (this machine was at 9700) so I tried to change the default to 9200 and the plunger ended up too low on the targets. So then I tried to change the default Shelf Offset above 10K and found that 9999 was as high as it will go. That number still worked at the targets. I later found though the Default change did make a difference on where it hit the target, it had an imperceptible effect on where the cup hit the door. I didn't find any adjustment in the manual under Factory Diagnostics for what rmorris called Hookswipe, but that sounds like an adjustment I was looking for. I also found that the top motor board is green, so I suspect this machine never got all of the DN updates that it should have had to correct all the known issues with the Bev 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Sometimes doing a master reset clears up intermittent problems or order a new eprom and update control board also works.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted October 18, 2013 Author Share Posted October 18, 2013 I was thinking of doing a master reset, hoping it would correct whatever information got corrupted. Maybe I'll do that before anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Because of my frustrating problems with my bevmax, and the long talks with the DN tech supports, I have concluded that there are THREE THINGS that can MESS UP EVERYTHING in a bevmax, and two of them can be relatively easy to fix. Firstly, properly setting the motors. You are supposed to loosen the brackets that hold the motors and take the motors COMPLETELY out. Once the motors are out, you then firmly tighten down the brackets without going too firm . NOW you install the motors without going too tight. The motors need to absolutely NOT be too tight. Doing it in this order should allow for the motors to be properly set to allow for perfect operation. Note: On my bevmax 2, the X motor and the Y motor are different; they cannot be interchanged. Properly setting the motors, making sure the sliding wheels are properly lubricated, and making sure the belts have proper tension have solved some of my problems with the horizontal/veritical errors. Other than THE MOTORS themselves, properly securing the motors is problem #2. The third problem (and the biggest for me) was the cup assembly. I had to order a new cup assembly (I think it was $280 + shipping) for my bevmax 2. This was the SHORTER cup assembly. I was told that the taller (newer) assembly works on a bevmax 2 but the machine would have to be properly set up. It's possible that you have a different cup or an updated version of the software and things need to be setup. As for the cup itself, my bevmax broke when I got the "Picker Home Switch" error. Assuming I had replaced the plunger and the switches on the old cup assembly, it probably would have worked fine. I just didn't want to risk it because I needed this part right away, so I went ahead and ordered an entirely new assembly. I just want to mention that the board should recognize any serious issue with any switches on the cup assembly, so I don't think it's your problem. However, as rmorris said, I don't think the board has any way of knowing how fast the motors are going, but it SHOULD know WHERE the cup is. Assuming that your shelves are in the correct position and the cup can easily move to those shelves, then that would verify that the machine knows its axis properly. I believe, as morris may have said, you hit the service mode button twice, and then F (I think F is for diagnostics) and maybe 8. You have to pull the door switch out if I am not mistaken. Doing so should allow you to use the keypad to move the picker. A, B, C, D, and E are for the shelf positions (Y axis) and 1-9 are for individual selections (X axis) and I think 0 is to operate the plunger. My best guess would be that your Y axis motor is not working properly and it doesn't STOP before it gets too low to vend. Then, upon trying to return home, it doesn't make it all the way for some reason and shuts the machine down as the switch isn't triggered. Try setting the motors properly first, since that can be the easiest thing to do, then check the diagnostics to make sure that the board knows exactly where each shelf is. I'm guessing you have several problems which makes it impossible to narrow it down to 1 problem. Make sure the board is set up for the right cup assembly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walta Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 If the cup finds the correct shelf position that means all the hardware (motors, switches, encoders, sensor and wires) are working the only thing left is the software. Walta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Note: On my bevmax 2, the X motor and the Y motor are different; they cannot be interchanged. Properly setting the motors, making sure the sliding wheels are properly lubricated, and making sure the belts have proper tension have solved some of my problems with the horizontal/veritical errors. . The third problem (and the biggest for me) was the cup assembly. I had to order a new cup assembly (I think it was $280 + shipping) for my bevmax 2. This was the SHORTER cup assembly. I was told that the taller (newer) assembly works on a bevmax 2 but the machine would have to be properly set up. It's possible that you have a different cup or an updated version of the software and things need to be setup. As for the cup itself, my bevmax broke when I got the "Picker Home Switch" error. Assuming I had replaced the plunger and the switches on the old cup assembly, it probably would have worked fine. I just didn't want to risk it because I needed this part right away, so I went ahead and ordered an entirely new assembly. I just want to mention that the board should recognize any serious issue with any switches on the cup assembly, so I don't think it's your problem. However, as rmorris said, I don't think the board has any way of knowing how fast the motors are going, but it SHOULD know WHERE the cup is. Assuming that your shelves are in the correct position and the cup can easily move to those shelves, then that would verify that the machine knows its axis properly. I believe, as morris may have said, you hit the service mode button twice, and then F (I think F is for diagnostics) and maybe 8. You have to pull the door switch out if I am not mistaken. Doing so should allow you to use the keypad to move the picker. A, B, C, D, and E are for the shelf positions (Y axis) and 1-9 are for individual selections (X axis) and I think 0 is to operate the plunger. My best guess would be that your Y axis motor is not working properly and it doesn't STOP before it gets too low to vend. Then, upon trying to return home, it doesn't make it all the way for some reason and shuts the machine down as the switch isn't triggered. Try setting the motors properly first, since that can be the easiest thing to do, then check the diagnostics to make sure that the board knows exactly where each shelf is. I'm guessing you have several problems which makes it impossible to narrow it down to 1 problem. Make sure the board is set up for the right cup assembly! Sometime between the Bev 2 and Bev 3 D/N had a problem with suppliers on the motors... Their fix was to find someone else but that also included having to change some cables.... Those replacement motors I believe can be identified with a white cap and some odd wiring harness. The ones with the white caps ended up not being very good. So it is possible you could have to different motors. You can go back to original motors now that they have corrected that problem. I can't remember but I think you have to remove the harness. Not sure haven't seen them in a while. Picker cups can be used on all BevMax's the newer one is better because the bottles don't have to drop in cup but slide off more at the same height. The only adjustment is the extend a cup setting.. Enabling extend a cup compensates for the longer and shorter cups. Picker home switch error is caused by the back plate on the picker cup being to tight and won't let the gear or cam turn or causes plunger to stick out. To clear this error if it happens on occasions is "Don't forget to pull white service switch Out" Test Mode F * 1* 0 It will make plunger go out and then back in. Do it several times. If it happens often take the the picker cup off and take it to a sink and flush it with hot water. Shake the water off and dry it off as good as you can. Reinstall. Also If you take the cup off loosen the phillips screws on the back slightly it sometimes corrects the picker home error. Also that cam gets worn from the plunger riding on it. It will get grooved and then won't push out far enough to eject the product off shelf. LOL the fix if it still works but won't push on the ejector hard enough is super glue a nickel on the end of the plunger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 One other thing.... If the belt is loose the motor count stays the same. That means if the belt slips the motor count is the same. You will come up short if that happens. Pull door switch out Test Mode F* then !* Press A and then 9.......... Press 1 listen for chatter of belt. If it doesn't sound smooth then the belt is most likely loose. Try this several times. Make sure someone hasn't removed the spring at the bottom of belt. It should be a 6" from the bottom when at home. And last thing. If the door doesn't close tight so that it doesn't keep the door switch depressed when it is making a vend that vibration can cause the service switch to loose connection and all comes to a dead stop.... That one took me days to figure out! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 This discussion here... is the reason why I only have ONE bevmax. I believe that the Royal Vision is a superior product ever since they "fixed" the problem with the wires from the cup harness getting snagged from the machine, pulling sensor wires out and causing the machine to be out of order. Regardless, I wouldn't get another glassfront unless I had a location that was going to do at least $500/week in soda sales by itself. I would still be nervous to install another glassfront. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walta Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 The last time I changed a motor it came with a service bulletin it seems both motors needed to be the same type and one of the two kinds needs an adaptor harness. It turns out my machine had the adaptors install when the bulletin indicated they should not have been needed. I am not sure that removing the adaptors changed anything but they are not in there now. Walta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 The cam on my cup was so worn, I could see my reflection. I considered adhering something to the plunger, but the breaking point was when the plunger could not go back in all the way, colliding with ejectors as it moved around. I would need a new cam, plunger, and switches to make that cup work. And a new cup board too. Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 UPDATE: I still haven't been able to get the machine working any better, no matter what I have done. The first thing I did was to check and adjust the Hookswipe encoder settings, but the adjustments I made were clearly not improving where the cup arrives at the door. I then performed a Master Reset and reset all the prices. Here are the results from the encoder positions following the master reset: 10000 1 and 10000 0 @ Home 10000 1 and 155597 1 @A1 103136 1 and 155597 1 @ A9 9954 1 and 9718 1 @ Home I then swapped the motors, also removing the Y motor ground screw and reinstalling it and removing and reinstalling all connectors on the Y motor board, but there was no change in operation with the motor swap. In reference to the suggestion that the motors are different or that original motors have white caps (I don't know if these have ever been changed), these motors are identical with the same manufacturer numbers on each and both have black caps. I then proceeded to make purchases from various shelves and positions. There is more going on than I originally thought because the plunger hits too high on the E shelf and strikes only metal, it hits metal in some positions on the D shelf, it barely clears the metal shelf when picking from the C shelf, it hits the B shelf targets perfectly and then (as I saw yesterday) the plunger hits the A targets, but just barely on the left and only a little better on the right. Summing up: the plunger is too high on the E shelf and gets progressively lower on each succeeding higher shelf. The shelves are all properly secured and the cabinet is level. Then, again, the strangest issue occurs only on the far right selections - no matter which shelf the 9 selection is made from, the cup will pick the product (or hit the shelf on the two lower shelves), then after it believes it has picked a product, the cup moves left 1-2 inches, then drops 3-4 inches and stops, locking the machine up. No keypad presses or c/r button presses will change the condition which includes the display showing the selection number and, I believe, the word "vending" or something similar. In other words it is stuck in the vending routine. The only thing that clears this is to turn the machine off and back on and close the door so the robot will go home. Though occaisionally it will go the the X home and then the cup drops to about the C shelf and stops. When this happens, the cup will go home before moving to the next vend, but only after you put money in and make the next selection Does anyone know if the Y motor board actually has any logic in it or is it just a middleman for all the signals in and out of the robot? I'm beginning to think this is entirely logic board related, though perhaps the Y motor board needs to be changed as this one is green and Rmorris said the updated board with better solder joints is blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 The motors only provide the board how far they have traveled....... Shelf loc is D on BevMax 2....... Is it possible you have a BevMax 3? If so it would be D2 Hook Swipe X 93281 Default Extended cup Disabled unless it has the newer longer cup Shelf off set = 700 This aligns where the plunger hits the shelf....... Always go home after making adjustments even if the picker is at home. If these numbers are off and it slams hard at the top or the side it can ruin the motor. If you are not even in the ballpark with these number I would change the motor board to blue.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walta Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I had a Y board come off its stand offs. It may have grounded out. I look closely and could find no active devices only a junction board. I am afraid you need to spend an hour and a half on hold with Dixie. Walta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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