DEX data

[SmartToys]

How important is DEX to you? Do you use it? Do you know what it is?
Do you have a VMS but it does not support your DEX data? Or it does, but you don't know how? 

I am building a universal vending machine controller that would connect to a company's VMS to automate things like mechanical failure - service ticket issuance, out of stock/low stock notifications. DEX (EVA DTS) covers all of these scenarios, but I cannot seem to get a good sense on whether or not operators use DEX, and if so, do they use DEX data in the context of their VMS.
I would like to understand if having DEX capabilities on a vending machine controller is important to the operator.

 

Thanks!

[orsd]

For big companies that use telemetry, yes, DEX is VERY important, as it is the de facto industry standard for that.

Literally every new machine and retrofit board (vending machine controller) has good DEX and every telemetry device out there gets DEX data in.

[SmartToys]

Thank you! Do you see vendors moving away from DEX and using web services (cloud, pc based communication) in lue of DEX in the near future?
It seems like DEX does offer a well throughout structure for the data one can encounter surrounding vend operations, but it is was also built for intermittent (on site) download/upload. Today with connectivity being more of a standard, do you think it may wither away soon?

I ask because I already support the latter with cloud based services, but I want to make sure the product would meet the existing business model of an operator, and make the integration of our controller seamless. The development overhead for implementing DEX the right way is quite large, so I'd like to understand if this is truly a must.
Based on your response, orsd, it sounds like it is a must for today's market.

[orsd]

DEX is the way that the vending machine transmits data, like how computers use USB to transmit data.

As such, it doesn't matter whether the operator still has old school handheld download devices or chooses to use a telemetry system, DEX will still be used by the vending machine to send data to said device. Now for the telemetry systems, most have a web interface for the operator to monitor the equipment.

Now, the industry is waayyyyy to fuckin deep into DEX to even think about changing it at this time. For instance, DEX and MDB, the two most current vending standards, made their debut in the 80's. (DEX being sales and machine data and MDB being the way the bill validator, coin mech, and card reader communicate to the vending machine. Also a must.) Personally, with the glacial pace that vending technology has developed, and the often 20-30 year service life of vending machines, it might be 2030 or 2040 before you see real talk about a new protocol. That is, unless the bottlers get a wild hair up their golpher. (DEX and MDB were developed at the behest of Coke and Pepsi bottlers.) Even then, it will be the late 2020's before any new protocol gets released, and probably 2035 before it sees widespread adoption, at the earliest.

Now, something that I personally think is worthwhile is user serviceability and customization. For instance, AMS allows you to get the latest firmware from their website, stick it on an SD Card, and load the latest version up.

Also, if you search this forum for the inOne board and the Vendors Exchange UCB, you will see some complaints about them. It may behoove you to heed those complaints and not fall into the same trap that VE and inone did. Also, try finding a large local vending company, not nationwide, but big enough to have multiple drivers and use the latest technology. Interview them, as well as the drivers, about what they want and would like to change. See if you can do a ridealong.

[SmartToys]

Thanks again, that is very useful, and exactly the information I was looking for.

I've implemented most of thr MDB spec (everything with coin mech, validator and cashless). 

DEX is a huge undertaking and I wanted to check that it is worth the time. It sounds like you are well aware of better ways to communicate.

I will look into the complaints with InOne  and VE. Im aware of their existence and know one of the products rather well. I can say that at least one of those is well below the standard I'm shooting for.

 

Thanks for the suggestion to find a local operator. I did find one, but I'm not even sure who (what role) to reach out to or how to go about engaging them. I'd love both in more than to be able to spend time and learn what they need, and work with their machines and process to make sure I can provide a stellar product. Any suggestions?

 

Thank you again. I am very grateful

[MVS]

Don't want to derail this conversation, so if it is too off-point, just say so, but:

If I have card swipe, do I automatically have telemetry (i.e., Does telemetry automatically, or usually, come with card swipe?), or are they two separate services I would need to buy: One agreement for card swipe, and another distinct agreement for telemetry?

[Southeast Treats]

17 minutes ago, MVS said:

If I have card swipe, do I automatically have telemetry (i.e., Does telemetry automatically, or usually, come with card swipe?), or are they two separate services I would need to buy: One agreement for card swipe, and another distinct agreement for telemetry?

Generally speaking, most companies "bundle" the two services, for lack of a better term, unless you specifically buy just one or the other; so you should have access to telemetry.  The communications have to be there for the card reader, so it is just a matter of connecting to DEX at the machine and deciding how to manage the data at your end...

[AZVendor]

20 hours ago, SmartToys said:

How important is DEX to you? Do you use it? Do you know what it is?
Do you have a VMS but it does not support your DEX data? Or it does, but you don't know how? 

I am building a universal vending machine controller that would connect to a company's VMS to automate things like mechanical failure - service ticket issuance, out of stock/low stock notifications. DEX (EVA DTS) covers all of these scenarios, but I cannot seem to get a good sense on whether or not operators use DEX, and if so, do they use DEX data in the context of their VMS.
I would like to understand if having DEX capabilities on a vending machine controller is important to the operator.

 

Thanks!

Just reading and following this forum, not to mention using the search function will give you all the information you are seeking.  Does this industry need a new "universal control board"?  I don't think so.  The ones we have do okay but the market is getting smaller every day with the rollouts of micro markets.  You also can't really create a "universal" board because there are just too many variations in machines.  I'm baffled why someone would want to create a logic board for an industry they know nothing about.  How did you come to the conclusion that there is a market for this if you aren't in the industry already?

[Southeast Treats]

About the only improvement I would really need in a new board would be much better remote reporting of problems (coin/bill jams, cooling failures, etc) that is usually promoted as being part of the current systems, but does not really work.  However, would I pay to upgrade machines to get it?  No. 

[SmartToys]

3 hours ago, AZVendor said:

Just reading and following this forum, not to mention using the search function will give you all the information you are seeking.  Does this industry need a new "universal control board"?  I don't think so.  The ones we have do okay but the market is getting smaller every day with the rollouts of micro markets.  You also can't really create a "universal" board because there are just too many variations in machines.  I'm baffled why someone would want to create a logic board for an industry they know nothing about.  How did you come to the conclusion that there is a market for this if you aren't in the industry already?

AZVendor, That is an excellent set of questions. I'll try my best to answer here.
"Just reading and following this forum, not to mention using the search function will give you all the information you are seeking. " I have been reading (covered about 100-200 posts related to DEX, VE and InOne controllers. It does give me some ideas of the concerns people have had, but not too much. So far, what I've gathered from operator feedback on this site
1. InVend has more intuitive installation instructions.
2. In 2014, people on this forum recommended UCB to get rid of weird power issues.
3. In 2016, people said UCB has weird power issues that InOne does not.
4. (Mechanical) Drop sensor gets hit/damaged when the door is not 180° open and the bottom shelf is slid out.

"The ones we have do okay but the market is getting smaller every day with the rollouts of micro markets." Yes, this is very true, and the guys like Amazon and AliBaba are quickly advancing on that front. A great deal of vending machines will be replaced with MicroMarkets. However those MicroMarkets are operated by a Kiosk or some POS (point of sale) device that might need to work with bill validator, credit card reader, and push data to the same backend (VMS) that other machines in the operator's arsenal are writing, and likely (that was a part of the original question) using DEX. So a VMC that does not have the components for motors/tray or automated bin/elevator, is a Kiosk controller. I don't plan to only work with vending machines.. (leading into the next question)

"You also can't really create a "universal" board because there are just too many variations in machines. " Absolutely true. I have very limited access to machines today (AP 113, National 147, non U.S. machines). I have a controller that works universally for these, and requires configuration + wire harness. There are other machines that likely have small variations, but I have read a few of the product's support documentation and it seems like the majority of the machines use the same principals (or small collection). For example, some machines wire selections to the high side, and trays to the low side, while other machines wire opposite. But this can be handled easily with configuration. I have yet to get a large enough sample to be able to understand how truly universal I can make it.

 

" I'm baffled why someone would want to create a logic board for an industry they know nothing about. "

I'm not sure why you drew that conclusion. I have some exposure to the industry, but I have never worked within an operator. I have developed products for other industries for over a decade. Most industries are much more advanced. How I got into the vending industry is a long story to be had over a cup of coffee :), but I saw what is the status quo, and it is decade or more behind technologies in other verticals (particularly manufacturing where most of my previous effort went).

One small example of this is the way an operator is required to program the controller. I think it is ridiculous from a user experience perspective, and given today's technology and cost, there is absolutely no reason there is not a small dedicated touch screen for the operator to do controller configuration. (A side topic, but DEX defines configuration messages for initial machine install, so I am not sure why people aren't using this approach, unless their software or the machine controller do not implement it).

The other is price point. Have you asked yourself why a drop sensor costs $100? What about infrared lights and a few chips that total $2 in BOM and the logic that required a software engineer to spend a day or two to implement has this high cost? I am a firm believer in free markets, and I honestly see that I can bring a superior product to the market at a better pricepoint.

 

Does that sound reasonable, or do you still think I am making a mistake?

 

Thanks for your time!

[SmartToys]

3 hours ago, Southeast Treats said:

About the only improvement I would really need in a new board would be much better remote reporting of problems (coin/bill jams, cooling failures, etc) that is usually promoted as being part of the current systems, but does not really work.  However, would I pay to upgrade machines to get it?  No. 

Thanks! If your controller had a GSM/3G/4G expansion board (that you could purchase right away or later) which, when plugged in, would give you the ability to report data to the cloud? The module would cost ~$30-40, SIM card can be provided with a plan or you can purchase your own. Data cost would vary based on usage, but for a controller that reports DEX 4 times per day and alerts (mechanical, stock level, vandalism) assuming you'd only have one per day, would end up giving you $1 - $5 in monthly data fees. Also with DEX being delivered to a cloud, it doesn't make it to your VMS. Our cloud could do things like send emails to pre-configured addresses, and SMS texts, but delivering data to your VMS directly would require additional customization/money. Does that sound like a model you'd be interested in? If not, what could be different to get your interest?
 

[AZVendor]

Whether you can create an affordable option or not you will need to consider how you will market it to the end users, vending machine operators.  The main suppliers of aftermarket boards are Vendors Exchange, InOne Technologies and a few distributors of Greenwick products.  VE and InOne have their own customer bases and access to vending operators so I don't imagine they will be interested in your product unless they decide to buy your design from you to replace their own.  Otherwise you'll have to find an outlet for the product that puts it in front of vending operators.  I would suggest Suzo/Happ but their support of vending machines is sadly pathetic nowadays.  I would never try to create a product for an industry without knowing how I would be selling to them.  In this case I would line up the cart before the horse so I had someplace to sell the product I create.

[orsd]

AIso, where are you based out of?

 

[Southeast Treats]

It sounds like just a different way to get what I already get in terms of data, so I don't see anything special about your product. 

[SmartToys]

2 hours ago, AZVendor said:

Whether you can create an affordable option or not you will need to consider how you will market it to the end users, vending machine operators.  The main suppliers of aftermarket boards are Vendors Exchange, InOne Technologies and a few distributors of Greenwick products.  VE and InOne have their own customer bases and access to vending operators so I don't imagine they will be interested in your product unless they decide to buy your design from you to replace their own.  Otherwise you'll have to find an outlet for the product that puts it in front of vending operators.  I would suggest Suzo/Happ but their support of vending machines is sadly pathetic nowadays.  I would never try to create a product for an industry without knowing how I would be selling to them.  In this case I would line up the cart before the horse so I had someplace to sell the product I create.

Thank you, that is great advice. I have done some market research and  now doing the VOC (Voice of Customer) part .  

[SmartToys]

1 hour ago, Southeast Treats said:

It sounds like just a different way to get what I already get in terms of data, so I don't see anything special about your product. 

Thank you Southeast Treats! May I ask what you envision when you say " I would really need in a new board would be much better remote reporting of problems (coin/bill jams, cooling failures, etc) that is usually promoted as being part of the current systems, but does not really work. "?

[SmartToys]

 

2 hours ago, AZVendor said:

Whether you can create an affordable option or not you will need to consider how you will market it to the end users, vending machine operators.  

I have some ideas about it. Other than organic growth (work with local operators to create product awareness) I have contemplated showing it off at NAMA when it would be ready. Do you think that it would be worthwhile? I will have to build a brand and create brand awareness, but I feel like the "first time vendor" tables might be just throwing good money out that could be used more effectively elsewhere.

Very interested to hear your thoughts sir

[AZVendor]

The NAMA OneShow would be the place to present it as well as the ACE Show on the east coast.  Don't present mockups but have working machines to show it in.

[SmartToys]

Thank you AZVendor et al! I really am happy to see such a wonderful community. 
 

13 minutes ago, AZVendor said:

The NAMA OneShow would be the place to present it as well as the ACE Show on the east coast.  Don't present mockups but have working machines to show it in.

When you go to the OneShow, do you evaluate products from vendors in the "first time exhibitor" booths they place in the back? I would most certainly come with working product, but I am concerned that the cost of the booth and everything surrounding the show might now bring in any business; specifically because of the stigma  (or my perception there of) with tables in the "first time" section.

[Southeast Treats]

The issue goes back to the DEX protocols, which apparently don't spell out/ didn't envision problem reporting remotely.  When they were conceived the sales data was physically pulled during service visits.  So the manufacturers of machines don't have a standard protocol and the manufacturers of validators and changers don't connect directly to DEX anyway, only indirectly thru the MDB circuit.  So they all have different error codes internally, and the systems don't communicate.  Errors are typically only reported to telemetry as possible errors i.e. X number of reports with no bill or coin activity.  Not precise and usually several days delayed.  But again, not something I would rip out the current hardware to fix. 

[SmartToys]

3 hours ago, Southeast Treats said:

The issue goes back to the DEX protocols, which apparently don't spell out/ didn't envision problem reporting remotely.  When they were conceived the sales data was physically pulled during service visits. 

You're absolutely right! The DEX specifications require the 1/4" jack for transport. 
 

 

3 hours ago, Southeast Treats said:

So the manufacturers of machines don't have a standard protocol and the manufacturers of validators and changers don't connect directly to DEX anyway, only indirectly thru the MDB circuit. 

Yes, it does make it a bit odd. The peripherals communicate with the controller via MDB, and the controller would have to convert this data to serve DEX events.

 

3 hours ago, Southeast Treats said:

 So they all have different error codes internally, and the systems don't communicate.  Errors are typically only reported to telemetry as possible errors i.e. X number of reports with no bill or coin activity. 

Well that shouldn't be. MDB, albeit it is not DEX, does have standard error codes which the peripherals I worked with do follow. The device must provide a level of functionality it supports, and VMC can determine which set of information can be collected. But all coin mechs have to report a failed slot the same. For example if you look at the MDB 4.2 specifications, section 5, section page 6, the VMC queries the coin mech for status using the 0xB (POLL) command. The coin mechs must provide a response that is pretty well defined (from my small experience).  So if there is a jam in the coin mech tube, the mech would respond with (00000111)  in the status bits, letting the controller know there is a coin jam. Then the VMC might generate a DEX event of type EA (EVA DTS v6.1, page 280) as the least specific. Anothe exmple might be slugs, which is reported as (001xxxxx) bit pattern from the coin mech, and translated nicely to DEX EAC (Accepting Slugs) event. Does it now work that way on your machines?

 

3 hours ago, Southeast Treats said:

Not precise and usually several days delayed.

That's the low standards I've noticed that I'd like to address  

While it may be difficult or impossible to pinpoint all issues precisely given the number of vendors, the age of some of the equipment, and the loose implementation around standards, there is no reason in today's connected world, an operator that has a machine with some connectivity available (cell, WiFi or LAN), could not have a service technician notified as the event occurs, whatever it may be, and let the technician diagnose machine remotely or make a service visit.

 

3 hours ago, Southeast Treats said:

But again, not something I would rip out the current hardware to fix. 

That is reasonable. But when you do choose to upgrade a machine (for whatever reason), you will likely evaluate your options between refurbishing, retrofitting, or replacing, and price will be important. If you have something like the other controllers, but have more value-added features... my product might find it's way to you one day
 

[Southeast Treats]

Thanks for the reply.  You are much more up on the tech than I am, and I hope that what you are doing will pay off for you someday.  It does not make sense that we are still so basic in our remote systems, but also remember the MAYA principle... most advanced yet acceptable.  I still have customers who are in awe of the fact that a vending machine takes credit cards!  

 

[Southeast Treats]

And just today, my VMS provider contacted me to tell me they have rolled out an upgrade to the system to translate the MDB alerts from the validator and changer into their alert system.  So we will see...

[SmartToys]

10 hours ago, Southeast Treats said:

And just today, my VMS provider contacted me to tell me they have rolled out an upgrade to the system to translate the MDB alerts from the validator and changer into their alert system.  So we will see...

Awesome!!

I've noticed that software folks have started to penetrate the vending industry, so I hope to see this pattern continue

 

May I ask which VMS you use?

[Southeast Treats]

I use ParLevel