AngryChris Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Hey guys. An account that currently takes care of their own coffee just contacted me recently. I already have the full-line and their coffee company that delivered supplies to them WAS a privately-owned small company but I believe they just got bought by a company that owns canteen although I am not certain about this. They want to get rid of the coffee expense so they are definitely looking for a coffee vending machine so that they don't have to worry about anything BUT they want coffee to be cheap. My simple solution was to provide a machine that would sell coffee fairly cheap but they would subsidize the coffee. I have the room for a full-size coffee machine such as an AP 213 or anything else. It seems like getting a full-sized used machine may work best as this location has anywhere from roughly 50-150 people during most of the work-week and some people are there at odd hours (it's a graduate school essentially). My idea is to provide a coffee machine and sell something like 10-ounce cups (or whatever is standard and vends well) and sell it for something like 40 cents while they subsidize me maybe 20 cents per cup. Would a different machine work better? How would you subsidize this? I could also sell the coffee outright at a standard price but I definitely believe the subsidy would be good for me at least for a while. Assuming I could sell 100+ cups/week, I think it would work out well. They might want to get rid of the subsidy if I sell a lot but that wouldn't be a bad thing if I can just raise prices. I would also like the option to potentially add a credit card reader but that isn't as important. I do want a mug option in addition to cup-drop. I believe this account has a mixture of people that just want coffee as well as people that want GOOD coffee. What's best in your opinions? Freeze dried, fresh brew, or ground coffee? What is a standard price? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 The AP213 is an excellent machine if rebuilt properly and thoroughly. They are dual cup and available in freeze dried, loose ground fresh brew or bean ground fresh brew. There was also a mug sensor option so the customer could use their own mug or cup. If you get a machine without the mug sensor then I have them in stock and can send you one. I wouldn't mess with freeze dried unless this was a dirty location like a factory where you might not be able to keep a brewer clean. Otherwise my preference was always loose ground fresh brew. It utilizes the same brewer as a grinder machine does but without the occasional issue with bean grindings interfering with the brew chamber seal. Not only have I operated these but have worked on hundreds of them and loose ground is the easiest to maintain and service. The standard cup sizes are 8.25 and 12 oz but there are 7 oz and 10 oz cups as well. The 213 could not go above 12 oz due to the size of it's brewer and the programming in it. If you ever wanted to provide a 16 oz or larger cup then you would need to use an AP223 Cafe Diem machine or a late model National coffee machine. The subsidized price could be a good sales generator for you so I would take them up on that. I would use the 8.25 and 12 oz cups as they are standard and easy to get. I've been out of vending long enough to not know what the standard prices should be now as costs have changed but I would imagine, based on what I used to sell coffee for and what I've seen my customers selling it for, that .60 to .75 for the 8.25 oz and .85 to 1.00 for 12 oz cups would be appropriate depending on the quality of coffee you sell. High end ground coffee brings an obvious higher price. You'll need to take change making abilities of the machine into consideration when determining what price you will put on the subsidized coffee. You can set any selection at any price so you can have subsidized coffee while all other selections are at the normal prices. You can then get meter readings by selection from the machine so you know how much to bill them for. You won't be able to use a card reader on this machine as it's not MDB but you wouldn't want to anyway because your prices won't warrant one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 Thank you AZ. Does something like maxwell house result in good coffee for the loose ground? I'm thinking I will make specialty things a fair price but only subsidize regular and decaf. I might use this to increase vending prices as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I never used any grocery store coffee and I don't know if the grind you can get in a store is the same or similar to that created for vending machines. I always used 2 lb. vending bags that we bought by the case as we had quite a few coffee machines out. I can't remember the brand but it was a national brand in red foil bags. You could always try the cans from a grocery store and give it up if that product doesn't work. I did a bunch of FD machines in dirty post offices but I always preferred the loose ground machines with FD decaf when quality mattered. Many of the AP213s had combined hoppers for both regular and decaf in loose ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 I will just rephrase. I'm not a coffee drinker, but will the loose ground produce a good cup of coffee assuming the coffee is good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walta Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Before you start you need to understand most coffee machines are money losers. Most customers will not like the taste of coffee from a machine, the best you will get is that it is OK. Do not do this unless you can devote half an hour each week to keep this machine clean without regard how many cups you sold. If not it will turn into a stinking bug filled mess. If you want to make money on coffee get a written agreement from the location that no other brewing devises will be allowed on the property. I like the RMI 213 but it is not a MDB machine so no card reader. For the regular coffee you want fresh brew or bean grinder. For decaf FD is OK Walt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Do not do this unless you can devote half an hour each week to keep this machine clean without regard how many cups you sold. If not it will turn into a stinking bug filled mess. QUOTED FOR TRUTH. Coffee machines are a hassle. They need to be kept clean. If you don't take the proper time to clean and sanitize the machine, it will spiral out of control into decay, eventually turning into a small black hole, sucking the entire Earth into it. ( OK, not really. What will really happen is the coffee will start to taste worse and worse, and your customers will start buying less and less coffee from it. Their mind will tell them that all coffee from a vending machine is bad, and they'll never want to buy coffee from a vending machine again. ) *I* don't drink coffee from a vending machine unless I have personally cleaned the crap out of it first. I've seen way, way to many filthy, disgusting coffee machines. A vending machine *can* make a fine cup of coffee. I'd completely avoid the AP213. Unless you're prepared to be woken in the middle of the night and have to drive to the account because one of the valves has failed, spewing water all over the floor of the machine. ( And overflowing out onto the floor. ) The National coffee machines have a plastic tray that covers the entire floor of the machine, and is just large enough to hold all the water from the tank if one of the valve fails. It's still a pain to clean up, but it's way better than mopping gallons of water off your account's floor in the middle of the night. The National 670 series is a good, quality coffee machine. I'd look there. It's very, very easy to adjust cup sizes. You can fill both turrets with the same size if you want. It has options for pre ground or grinder coffee. ( AVOID FREEZE DRIED AT ALL COSTS. A coffee machine is a moist environment. Over time, that freeze dried coffee will turn into a solid block. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvending Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I guess my opinion disagrees with most here. We have used freeze-dried coffee exclusively overthe past decade. If you set up the machines correctly, you can make a very good cup of coffee. The downside is that there is no aroma from freeze-dried coffee. Use a quality brandof coffee and you will be fine. Machines are much easier to work on and maintain. We use the National 675 unit which is MDB, dual cup, individual pricing and sure-vend option.they are no longer in production and may be very hard to find. There is money to be made in coffee!, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrCorey Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 also with a used machine, it could have altered recipe tables. cause tastes vary from region to region somewhat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 I'm going to try to find out roughly how much they spend on OCS coffee next week. That *should* give me an idea on how many cups they may go through on a weekly basis. The secretary lady has long said that they go through a LOT of coffee there and she usually knows what she is talking about. It's just a guess, but I think 100+cups per week is very possible. Anyone else go through this much at a location with maybe an average of 100 people/day ? Also, would one of those smaller vending machines do the job? I think it is Chris in BC that praises those bean grinder machines, but I don't know if they can have a coin mech and validator installed. This account wants to get away from paying directly for OCS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 I guess my opinion disagrees with most here. We have used freeze-dried coffee exclusively overthe past decade. If you set up the machines correctly, you can make a very good cup of coffee. The downside is that there is no aroma from freeze-dried coffee. Use a quality brandof coffee and you will be fine. Machines are much easier to work on and maintain. We use the National 675 unit which is MDB, dual cup, individual pricing and sure-vend option.they are no longer in production and may be very hard to find. There is money to be made in coffee!, How much do you typically sell your cups for? I would rather not spend over $5,000 on a coffee machine. I really think this location is comprised of people that a) need coffee, want good coffee, or c) need GOOD coffee. I don't need to sell gourmet coffee here and I think a lot of these people are regular Speedway, 7-eleven, McDonald's types of coffee drinkers here. They just want a decent cup of coffee for a decent price, which is why I think the subsidy route is the best route for me. As long as the coffee machines can do that, count me in! QUOTED FOR TRUTH. Coffee machines are a hassle. They need to be kept clean. If you don't take the proper time to clean and sanitize the machine, it will spiral out of control into decay, eventually turning into a small black hole, sucking the entire Earth into it. ( OK, not really. What will really happen is the coffee will start to taste worse and worse, and your customers will start buying less and less coffee from it. Their mind will tell them that all coffee from a vending machine is bad, and they'll never want to buy coffee from a vending machine again. ) *I* don't drink coffee from a vending machine unless I have personally cleaned the crap out of it first. I've seen way, way to many filthy, disgusting coffee machines. A vending machine *can* make a fine cup of coffee. I'd completely avoid the AP213. Unless you're prepared to be woken in the middle of the night and have to drive to the account because one of the valves has failed, spewing water all over the floor of the machine. ( And overflowing out onto the floor. ) The National coffee machines have a plastic tray that covers the entire floor of the machine, and is just large enough to hold all the water from the tank if one of the valve fails. It's still a pain to clean up, but it's way better than mopping gallons of water off your account's floor in the middle of the night. The National 670 series is a good, quality coffee machine. I'd look there. It's very, very easy to adjust cup sizes. You can fill both turrets with the same size if you want. It has options for pre ground or grinder coffee. ( AVOID FREEZE DRIED AT ALL COSTS. A coffee machine is a moist environment. Over time, that freeze dried coffee will turn into a solid block. ) Thank you for that information. I plan on avoiding freeze-dried for a couple reasons, including the one you mentioned. I never thought about National machines having that tray so thanks for the input. About the cleanest option for me is to sell k-cups directly to the customers here. I COULD get a keurig that would take care of business and I COULD get a newer snack machine that would take care of vending k-cups. The only issue with this idea is that the k-cups would be anywhere from 80 cents to $1, and they want the people to get a good value there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Since you're moving them from free coffee to paid coffee and as they know the employees want good value, the K-cup option won't be a good one. Regardless of what Feral's opinion on AP213s is, as long as the machine is properly refurbished and then maintained, always being vigilant for water leaks, you won't have any more trouble with an AP vs. a National. You will not blow valves out of either machine as they both use brackets that lock the valves in. While a large water leak will run out of an AP, those size leaks only happen if you're not vigilant. The largest leaks are when a supply line breaks behind the machine. The only machine I've ever had a valve actually blow out of was on a USI late model machine from 5 years ago. The tank overheated and built up so much pressure that the valve burst out of it's rubber grommet. That reminds me, the machines that use rubber grommets to seal the valves into the tanks do not use brackets to hold the valve in place. This applies to the newer USIs and also the AP223 Cafe Diem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walta Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I do not think the number of free cup of coffee given away plus the coffee taken for home use has almost no bearing on the number of cups of coffee you will sell. No less if they allow if they allow 6 or 8 pot show up in different departments. I have never had a leak in a RMI coffee that flooded a location. Walta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 Perhaps I should consider a counter-top model such as a Colibri or Necta. To put this into perspective, people WERE paying roughly 50 cents (assuming they paid as the machine had a coin box but the keurig was on free-vend) for k-cups to use the keurig. From what I understood, the place may have gotten an average of about 35 cents out of every k-cup used... so the school was only out 15 cents per k-cup, but they bought several hundred k-cups each month. The unfortunate thing here is that I am sort of being told that I won't make money from a single-cup machine, nor will I make money from a full-size coffee machine, or practically any other option. Given no solid alternative, I will purchase a full-size coffee machine (used) to take care of business, but I am interested in these counter-top options as it *appears* easier to maintain but I don't know how difficult part replacement and repair will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I'm going to try to find out roughly how much they spend on OCS coffee next week. That *should* give me an idea on how many cups they may go through on a weekly basis. Also, would one of those smaller vending machines do the job? I think it is Chris in BC that praises those bean grinder machines, but I don't know if they can have a coin mech and validator installed. This account wants to get away from paying directly for OCS. I would definitely ask how much they were spending per month on their OCS even though it may have NO bearing on how many cups you will do like Walta mentioned.. The machines that Chris in BC users are Cafection models manufactured in Canada.. http://www.cafection.com/images/brochure/galleria_feuillet_eng_coffee_avalon_cafection.pdf I prefer machines manufactured by Necta.. especially the "new" Krea which in my opinion is the best coffee vending machine in the market. But it may not be suitable for what your site is looking for.. How much are you looking at investing in a coffee machine? How often are you currently going to this site to service snack/drink machines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 I would definitely ask how much they were spending per month on their OCS even though it may have NO bearing on how many cups you will do like Walta mentioned.. The machines that Chris in BC users are Cafection models manufactured in Canada.. http://www.cafection.com/images/brochure/galleria_feuillet_eng_coffee_avalon_cafection.pdf I prefer machines manufactured by Necta.. especially the "new" Krea which in my opinion is the best coffee vending machine in the market. But it may not be suitable for what your site is looking for.. How much are you looking at investing in a coffee machine? How often are you currently going to this site to service snack/drink machines? I currently visit this site anywhere from 2-3 times per week depending on classes. There are times that I go 5 days in a week due to having 200 visitors at the place but that only happens maybe 3 times per year. In other words, I am there several times each week. I would like to keep it under $2,500 but I would be okay with going slightly over if the machine could generate coffee worth paying for. A lot of these people are there at odd hours and I have noticed that a lot of staff don't leave for lunch. They either pack it or buy from the vending machine. Sometimes mothers bring their children and kill the vending machines around 7pm. I understand what you are all saying about their coffee usage not having a direct relationship with the coffee sales generated from a machine, but I think it is important to bring it up as I have no other information to go on to guess the usage. My major issue is this: this account WILL generate attention from other vendors and, at this point, I would rather kick the OCS guy out as they are now owned by a large company that also does full-line vending. I have no reliable way of collecting payment for OCS from customers and the business does not want to pay for the OCS expense either. I just find it hard to believe that the OCS bill can be SO HUGE that they don't want to pay for it. This place makes a lot of money having somewhere in the range of 70+ faculty and staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 You'll do fine with the coffee machine, especially in your cold winters there. The way to look at the coffee is that it won't be a profit center unto itself, but will solidify you in the location because you can meet all of their needs. This won't be a loss-leader like a cold food machine would be so you will always make money and some profit each month. You will just have a very long ROI with it. You shouldn't have to spend any more than $2500 for a rebuilt machine unless you get a late model that's fancier. When you decide on a machine you need to make sure that the water valves are all rebuilt or replaced, that the tank is delimed or replaced and that all heater seals are new, that the drain valve is new, that the product whippers are rebuilt, and that it has a new water filter cartridge installed (should be replaced every year). When you purchase cups make sure the item numbers you buy are available in the long run because the cup rings need to be adjusted to fit your cups and if you change cups later the cup rings will need to be adjusted again. Keep a dishwashing brush and a bottle of dish soap inside the machine. Use the brush and hot water for cleaning the components and the soap is for putting a squirt into the freshly washed and rinsed waste bucket under the cup station. This is to keep odors in the bucket down. After you service the machine you will need to clean it from the top, down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 You'll do fine with the coffee machine, especially in your cold winters there. The way to look at the coffee is that it won't be a profit center unto itself, but will solidify you in the location because you can meet all of their needs. This won't be a loss-leader like a cold food machine would be so you will always make money and some profit each month. You will just have a very long ROI with it. You shouldn't have to spend any more than $2500 for a rebuilt machine unless you get a late model that's fancier. When you decide on a machine you need to make sure that the water valves are all rebuilt or replaced, that the tank is delimed or replaced and that all heater seals are new, that the drain valve is new, that the product whippers are rebuilt, and that it has a new water filter cartridge installed (should be replaced every year). When you purchase cups make sure the item numbers you buy are available in the long run because the cup rings need to be adjusted to fit your cups and if you change cups later the cup rings will need to be adjusted again. Keep a dishwashing brush and a bottle of dish soap inside the machine. Use the brush and hot water for cleaning the components and the soap is for putting a squirt into the freshly washed and rinsed waste bucket under the cup station. This is to keep odors in the bucket down. After you service the machine you will need to clean it from the top, down. Thank you Randy. That is really the type of response I was looking for. The AP 213 just seems more available than the National models but that's just off of my initial search. The 213 appears to look nice also. Is the RMI 213 different from the AP 213? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZVendor Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 RMI (Refreshment Machinery Inc) was a separate company from AP until they were bought by AP. The last machines built by RMI proper was the 8050 series. After the acquisition of RMI, AP continued to manufacture the machines under the RMI name while still using the RMI factory, their engineers, tech support, parts department, etc. The first machine built under AP ownership was the 203 which looked like the later 213 but was single cup and had some differences in how the select panel looked. These were all labeled as RMI machines and even the first 213s had RMI serial number plates until the AP labels began to be applied. Most 213s, though, have the AP label. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Perhaps I should consider a counter-top model such as a Colibri or Necta. I currently visit this site anywhere from 2-3 times per week depending on classes. There are times that I go 5 days in a week due to having 200 visitors at the place but that only happens maybe 3 times per year. In other words, I am there several times each week. Since you visit the site so often you could consider a fresh bean counter-top option.. In my opinion the later model machines can produce (if setup correctly) a far superior coffee than the older models can because of there superior brewer design. I think coffee equipment has changed a lot over the years & the quality of the coffee they can produce has improved also allowing you to charge a premium price per cup.. Like all coffee equipment they do require extra attention,cleaning, maintenance ect.. but this is performed regularly you shouldn't have to many breakdowns. The only problem I see is the cost of the equipment on the secondhand.. the prices in the US are far more expensive than what I would be willing to pay. All that said... if you were wanting to purchase an AP213 you can't go wrong. they are older machine/technology but like all older AP equipment were built to last. You should also be able to source parts easily enough being based in the US. I had to turn down a AP211 the other day that someone wanted to sell me for $100 because I wouldn't find parts for it here.. It is also outdated looking compared to other machines that are available in our market. The last time I operated a AP coffee machine onsite would be well over 10 years ago.. everything nowadays has LCD screens or plays music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Perhaps I should consider a counter-top model such as a Colibri or Necta. To put this into perspective, people WERE paying roughly 50 cents (assuming they paid as the machine had a coin box but the keurig was on free-vend) for k-cups to use the keurig. From what I understood, the place may have gotten an average of about 35 cents out of every k-cup used... so the school was only out 15 cents per k-cup, but they bought several hundred k-cups each month. The unfortunate thing here is that I am sort of being told that I won't make money from a single-cup machine, nor will I make money from a full-size coffee machine, or practically any other option. Given no solid alternative, I will purchase a full-size coffee machine (used) to take care of business, but I am interested in these counter-top options as it *appears* easier to maintain but I don't know how difficult part replacement and repair will be. The coffee biz is very different from the vending biz. If they let you look at an OCS invoice of theirs, you'll notice a something. They always try to upsell to get accounts to buy stir sticks, creamer, ( sometimes many different kinds of creamers ) and sugar. "Hey, while you're at it, we have a special on tea, would you like me to add some teas to your order? People pay through the nose for OCS, if they're not paying attention. The big company that I worked for until I moved on two months ago lost a giant hospital account, because they had been charging different locations within the hospital vastly different amounts. In one case, one building was paying twice what the main hospital was for coffee. Also: I am biased towards the late model National coffee machines. ( 650 series and newer ) I got my start at a place that was almost exclusively AP/RMI, and when I moved to another company that favored National, man. Those machines are so much better. Less fiddly, easier to work on, more standardized parts. If I never have to tear into another AP213, it'll be too soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I have never had a leak in a RMI coffee that flooded a location. I've seen it so many times. Man. Whoever had the bright idea to set an AP203 on the carpeted second floor of a Post Office in downtown Seattle should be shot. ( We bought out the company that set it, so I have no idea who the idiot was. ) That was the final straw for the AP series for me. Getting called in on a Sunday, to a Post Office for a coffee machine that leaked all over the break room floor. Man. Luckily, you have the advantage of being an owner-operator. So you'll probably pay more attention to your machines that a route driver will. You usually get telltale warning signs of leaky valves. But if the route driver doesn't call it in, you're not getting the call until everything is all wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 I've seen it so many times. Man. Whoever had the bright idea to set an AP203 on the carpeted second floor of a Post Office in downtown Seattle should be shot. ( We bought out the company that set it, so I have no idea who the idiot was. ) That was the final straw for the AP series for me. Getting called in on a Sunday, to a Post Office for a coffee machine that leaked all over the break room floor. Man. Luckily, you have the advantage of being an owner-operator. So you'll probably pay more attention to your machines that a route driver will. You usually get telltale warning signs of leaky valves. But if the route driver doesn't call it in, you're not getting the call until everything is all wet. And this is one of those reasons why I would rather move AWAY from coffee machines entirely and focus solely on OCS... but this is a nice account and, as long as the coffee machine pays for itself, it's worth the investment to keep the account. I am also considering throwing out the pitch that I need to raise prices on everything else.. Maybe I will "offset" the higher coffee prices (and subsidy) by saying I need to raise everything else by 5 or 10 cents. This account has solid prices for most stuff but candy is still a bit cheap. If I can just get my 20 oz bottles and candy bars up 10 cents.. I will be happy even if the coffee sales only pay for the machine and nothing else. Trust me, I don't want to get into coffee machines if I don't have to... but I think I have to in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I am a coffee drinker. I love a stout full flavor cup of coffee. With that said there is some really good advice here. My 2 cents. #1 Maintenance is a must. Keeping it simple will make your life easy. Fresh brew is the best tasting however requires more maintenance. Store bought coffee can work but due to the grind it takes more to get it strong enough. More means more in the brew chamber and more chances for a mess. The 2 lb bags for vending a ground especially for vending machines. Also paperless less moving parts less chance of breakdown and less chance of a mess. I recommend my customers use freeze dried. There are some really good brands out there now days. IE Tasters choice. Less money less mess. Coffee isn't going to be the biggest seller. It will be hot cocoa, Cappuccino, etc. The chicken soup is one of my favorites. A freeze dried coffee vendor will cost you less. Heavy coffee drinkers more than likely will bring their own from someplace else. Little tip. With all the creamer and sugar that ends up in waste bucket make sure you clean it every time you service regardless how full it is. Also put a bottle of dish soap in the vendor. Every time you empty the bucket squirt some in. It will keep the nats and bugs away. Also keep vendor from smelling sour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral Vending Mechanic Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Not dish soap. Little tiny splash of bleach. Kills odors and bugs dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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