KSL -- part 2

[sherlock]

Because my original thread about my issue with Kickstart went in many directions, I figured my path to a resolution with Rob may as well start on a fresh thread.

If you want to wade through all the sidetracking here's the original thread: http://VENDiscuss.com/forum/index.php?topic=9478.0

Steve,

If starting a new thread is wrong -- I am sorry.

Please feel free to merge this thread with the original.

I had my meeting with my charity today and we reviewed the status of my vending agreement.

Good news is I got to keep my agreement --- only I can no longer use locators.

That wasn't the worst part...

What was most troubling about the meeting was that the directors most involved with the situation were present at the meeting and provided further details as to what happened.

The Directors indicated that when they received the 2nd complaint from local business owners about a rude/pushy telemarketing employee from my charity calling them, they figured they had a phone scam in progress.

The 2nd complainant had copied the telemarketers phone # off of his caller ID and given it to the Directors.

The Directors, expecting a scam, called the police to report it.

When an officer showed up at their office, they conference-called the telemarketer's phone # via speaker phone to inquire further.

When the girl (KSL locator) answered, the callers did not ID themselves as Directors or a police officer.

Instead, they simply stated they were calling to follow-up on a call she made to a business in my home town about a vending machine.

I believe KSL's locator thought she was speaking to a business responding to her initial call because when she was asked by a director about her status with my charity, the KSL locator confirmed she WAS an employee of my charity.

When questioned further about what she wanted , she gave herself the title of Charity Coordinator (or something like that) for my charity and stated she was hoping they'd allow a vending machine for the charity in their business.

Again, she was questioned about her status with my charity and again she confirmed she was an employee of the charity itself.

All in all, the locator stated she was a direct employee of my charity AT LEAST three times in the one call.

It was at this time that the police officer spoke up and informed the KSL locator who he was.

He informed the locator that the callers were actually the Operations Director and HR Director for my charity, that they were calling from my charity's ONLY office, AND that the HR Director did not have any record of this locator being an employee as she had repeatedly claimed.

The locator's only response was, "Oh...." and silence.

The officer proceeded to inform the girl about the many laws she was breaking by misrepresenting herself while calling from another state on behalf of a charity. At the Directors' request, the officer asked the locator to discontinue making these calls or legal action would follow.

The Directors mentioned during my meeting with them that they have the police officers contact information, police report filing data, notes obtained during the call by each director, and the fact that not 1 but 2 directors were present during the call with the officer to assure me that they were not misleading with their information.

I have no reason to doubt their statements given all of these facts.

AND, it would have been easier for them to simply cancel my vending agreement if they wanted to stop working with me...so they have no motive to lie.

Rob had offered to make this right for me BEFORE these terrible truths were known to either of us (or at least to me).

I had not replied since I wanted to wait until after I met with my charity.

I have now asked Rob to make this right...I am waiting for a response.

[Bender]

I am very disappointed to hear this news, as I have hired KSL to locate a number of charity machines for me.  I am certainly not in favor of the telemarketer (let's call it what it is) representing themselves to be a direct employee of mine, or of any charity in question.

I understand a telemarketer's motivation to close a sale.  However, I don't see any reason why a KSL contractor cannot be completely up front with their listeners about the nature of the call: "I am calling on behalf of Sherlock Candy Distributors, who supports local charity A, and he is asking you to support this charity by placing his small candy machine at your store, at no cost to you."

This offense could be considered by a local district attorney as interstate wire fraud, and is a serious offense indeed.  This telemarketer should be reprimanded severely, if not terminated outright, and KSL should enact a strict policy to avoid these situations in the future.

[candyman007]

Just a short reply.

I want to make abundantly clear this is a rogue agent. 

I and the rest of the KSL team would never condone this. 

Regards,

Rob

[BluePlate]

Ok, I first want to make it clear - I am not taking sides here.  I want to becareful

1st - It sounds like you might be the only vendor working for this charity.  When this whole thing got back to the director, why would he call the police before calling you?  It seems like he may have overeacted.  I think the proper thing for the director to do would be call you and say something like "Hey, this is not where I wanted to take this.  I don't know all the fact, but make this go away quickly!".  Seems like a power play on his part.

2nd - This type of thing with locators has been talked about at length on Vendiscuss.  If you look into any locator, I think they all (or most) operate in the grey area.  [i'm gonna get blasted for this one!]  Stop and think about all the things locators need to do to make a living.  Say you want to make an ok living (say $55K a year).  You need to locate about 154 machines a month! (That is about 8 placements a day or about 100 calls a day).   That is WITHOUT any employees and NO health insurance, NO retirement, NO  benefits at all! I once knocked off about 40 calls in a day and I wanted to jump from a tall building, never mind every day of my life. Frankly, if you really break down the numbers, I just don't know how the heck someone like Rob does it. If you break all these numbers down, I would would be surprised if any locator is NOT cutting corners.

My next question would be, what would you want Rob to do to "make it right".

My last comment would be, I would question your public airing of this.  As you describe it, Rob just skirted some legal action.  I'm just not sure if this is fair before Rob had a chance to think this through......

[sherlock]

1st - It sounds like you might be the only vendor working for this charity.  When this whole thing got back to the director, why would he call the police before calling you?  It seems like he may have overeacted.  I think the proper thing for the director to do would be call you and say something like "Hey, this is not where I wanted to take this.  I don't know all the fact, but make this go away quickly!".  Seems like a power play on his part.

The 2 directors handling the situation were never made aware of KSL's attachment to my business.

Even when they spoke to KSL's rep, she never mentioned that KSL was hired by me.

But, that was all after the police were called.

The reason they called the police so quickly was because their research on the call ID ph# showed it was an office out of state and they know I'm in Texas.

They never put 2-and-2 together....thinking I hired someone.

I don't believe it was a powerplay...the meeting set my mind at ease about that being a possibility.

The charity was very clear on how they could lose their non-profit status if they used telemarketers and because of this, they wanted to kill the 'scam' quickly if it existed.

2nd - This type of thing with locators has been talked about at length on VENDiscuss.  If you look into any locator, I think they all (or most) operate in the grey area.  [i'm gonna get blasted for this one!]  Stop and think about all the things locators need to do to make a living.  Say you want to make an ok living (say $55K a year).  You need to locate about 154 machines a month! (That is about 8 placements a day or about 100 calls a day).  That is WITHOUT any employees and NO health insurance, NO retirement, NO  benefits at all! I once knocked off about 40 calls in a day and I wanted to jump from a tall building, never mind every day of my life. Frankly, if you really break down the numbers, I just don't know how the heck someone like Rob does it. If you break all these numbers down, I would would be surprised if any locator is NOT cutting corners.

This may all be true.

But your comments are irrelevant to my situation considering the assurances Rob has given me via email regarding how his team operates and the assurance he has given us all via posts on this forum regarding the same.

My next question would be, what would you want Rob to do to "make it right".

My last comment would be, I would question your public airing of this.  As you describe it, Rob just skirted some legal action.  I'm just not sure if this is fair before Rob had a chance to think this through......

You question my public airing of this, but want me to post what Rob has to do to make it right?

That's a little hypocritical isn't it?

In my emails to Rob, I have not put any time table on his rectifying the matter.

He asked me a question or two about righting the situation in an email exchange last week and I simply replied today and have awaited his response.

I have not deprived him of the ability to "think this through"...nor would I.

I just wanted him to acknowledge he has received my request...and he has.

You may question my airing this in public, but my reasons are honorable.

I promised to keep the members of this forum updated on what was going on and I have.

And I will continue to do so.

I would like to serve others as I have been served by this forum....with helpful honest information.

It serves little good to only report the positive experiences we have with our sponsors/advertisers.

[mainor5251]

I'm kinda curious as to what you expect him to do to make it right, what's done is done.  He could send your charity a letter of apology but what else is there.

[sherlock]

You know...two of you have asked what it is I'm asking Rob for.

I consider myself a reasonable man, and if I'm wrong in my request -- maybe you guys can help point that out to me.

I don't want to ask Rob for something unreasonable....and that is why I will post the details.

But before posting my request to him -- here's some background on my order.

When I first spoke to Rob about my order, I intended on having locators locate 10 locations a month for me to supplement my locating work.

Rob assured me that this was a workload they could handle.

I put in an order for several locations in November/December of last year, which was filled promptly.

I did however need 2 replacements after a couple months.

Because I was looking for a long-term relationship with a locator, I ordered from KSL using his promotion of buy-20-locations-get-5-locations-free back in January.

To keep things simple, Rob and I agreed to just roll the 2 replacements needed on my December order into the request for these 25 locations. Which means I had paid for 22 locations and Rob was getting me 27 (including the 5 free for buying 20).

Rob's team had not been able to meet the 10machine-per-month goal as my order has still not been filled, but we were working on that together and he was doing a great job of doing what he could to make suggestions on how to get it done before his rep fouled things up.

Right now, the order stands like this:

He has located 18 of those 27.

And I have a total of 7 unused replacements.

So, I am owed 9 locations with the ability to use up to 7 replacements.

This is what I asked of Rob in order to make things right.....

Considering I can no longer use his service, I would like a refund.

I paid for 4 of those 9 remaining locations (remember 5 were going to be free).

However, because I have lost my ability to use the 7 available replacements and have no "kickout" protection for even my most recent KSL locations (since I can't use locators) I asked for a refund for the entire 9 remaining locations.

Before, deciding whether I'm entitled to the 9-location refund if 5 were going to be free, keep the following in mind:

When I paid his per-location fee on 22 locations, included in the price were the benefits of "kick-out" protection AND "replacement" benefits.

It was his reps actions that prevent me from having access to these benefits on my existing KSL locations.

I have paid for 22 locations with these benefits and yet do not get the protection offered by them.

And in case you are wondering, NINE of the 18 locations found by KSL are still within the 90day benefit period...so there is a possibility I may have needed these benefits.

I am seeking some compensation for not only the locations I paid for and will not receive, but for my loss of protection and benefits on the 9-of-18 existing locations still qualified for benefits, too.

This was my reasoning behind asking for the full 9-location refund.

I did tell Rob I was not opposed to discussing any alternatives he may have to offer --- so do not think I'm drawing a hard line with this.

Again, I am not unreasonable....I'm willing to listen if you think I am.

[BluePlate]

I always like to play "devils advocate".  I think it gets people thinking.  I think you and Rob are in a tough position here.  To give my devil's advocate's position.

Rob requires that the vending machine owners have a viable charity he can use to located.  You lost your charity.  (I'm sure you feel that is Rob's fault, which maybe it is).  Sherlock, I think maybe time to re-think your Charity, not because it is a bad charity - but it may not fit into your business model.  You may even want two charities. You obviously saw the need for a locator in the begining, you really need to think if you still need one.

What is interesting about this business is, we often do things without a contract, we use verbal agreements.  In other businesses I'm in we need very detailed strong contracts because the stakes are so high.  Often we say behind every good relationship is a strong contract. 

Maybe we can go to Judge Judy!

[sherlock]

I always like to play "devils advocate".  I think it gets people thinking.  I think you and Rob are in a tough position here.  To give my devil's advocate's position.

Rob requires that the vending machine owners have a viable charity he can use to located.  You lost your charity.  (I'm sure you feel that is Rob's fault, which maybe it is).  Sherlock, I think maybe time to re-think your Charity, not because it is a bad charity - but it may not fit into your business model.  You may even want two charities. You obviously saw the need for a locator in the begining, you really need to think if you still need one.

What is interesting about this business is, we often do things without a contract, we use verbal agreements.  In other businesses I'm in we need very detailed strong contracts because the stakes are so high.  Often we say behind every good relationship is a strong contract. 

Maybe we can go to Judge Judy!

Thanks.

That's all very good advice.

The silver lining to this situation is that it forces me to consider a 2nd charity.

That is something I had not been considering at all because of my strong belief in my current charity.

If/when I find a 2nd charity, I will be diversifying my route AND serving my community from one more direction.

That's a pretty sweet silver lining, no?

As far as my current charity and it's viability -- it was very viable....until last week.

Some locators did better than others with it.

But it was working well over-all because my charity has a very good presence in my area.

One locator recently told me how happy his staff was with my charity because it was easy to get locations for....and that his staff doesn't always feel that way about charities other than NCCS.

However, my business model will now require that I think very hard about a 2nd charity.

This is the most difficult part of the situation...because I do charity vending from a very personal standpoint and truly want to benefit the charity with my efforts.

So, I have to feel strongly about the cause.

I can't just look for whatever charity has a vending program, makes it the easiest to get stickers, or whatever charity will help produce the most locations.

I do not consider my business "charity vending".

I consider my commission and non-commission locations my business, and my charity vending is just my way of giving back to my community.

I subscribe very strongly to the theory that a business must have a purpose bigger than the bottom line.

And, yeah, Rob and I are in a tough position...but that's because we are entrepreneurs.

If it was "easy" we were after, I think we'd be working in some cubicle wearing stiff collared shirts.

[fronk327]

I agree with BluePlate. What would be the harm in using a second charity for the locations that you are owed?

[sherlock]

I agree with BluePlate. What would be the harm in using a second charity for the locations that you are owed?

Read my previous post.

I really don't know when (or if) that 2nd charity will happen.

[lurtsman]

Read my previous post.

I really don't know when (or if) that 2nd charity will happen.

Have you considered picking up NCCS?

I have no particular desire to help them beyond my desire to help any charity. I think it's a good cause, as many charities have, but they also have an effective system in place. I'm moving into commission, but planning to keep my charity route in tact (will probably try to keep 60 charity locations) because I like contributing to a good cause.

[sherlock]

Have you considered picking up NCCS?

I have no particular desire to help them beyond my desire to help any charity. I think it's a good cause, as many charities have, but they also have an effective system in place. I'm moving into commission, but planning to keep my charity route in tact (will probably try to keep 60 charity locations) because I like contributing to a good cause.

In my area, there are far too many crappy vendors using that charity.

I do not want that sticker and it's local negative connotations associated to my machines.

[sherlock]

Thanks for the advice everyone has given.

Rob and I have come to an agreement and the final detail is being handled today.

I think the final agreement was fair to both of us and give credit to Rob...as it was his idea.

Do not ask for details.

I will not provide them. 

Suffice it to say, we are both satisfied.

[BluePlate]

Congrats on coming to an agreement, I'm happy you were both able to do that.

When it comes down to it, your two people just trying to make money to pay the bills.

[raquel]

One of the things that Rob will probably do is get rid of that telemarketer, and remind all his agents that the behavior is unacceptable. That will go a long way towards helping the wronged client feel better when hiring him for locating services in the future.

[agrantha]

Sherlock

You should write a book.  You have great grammar skills and the ability to arrange thoughts and ideas.  Consider it another stream of income.

[agrantha]

I know it is off the topic but I could not help but notice.

[mainor5251]

The good thing about being the author you get to choose what chapters your goona reveal to the reader. Looks like the final chapter has been ripped from are hands. Oh well I'm sure there will be more locator drama soon!

[sherlock]

The good thing about being the author you get to choose what chapters your goona reveal to the reader. Looks like the final chapter has been ripped from are hands. Oh well I'm sure there will be more locator drama soon!

No. It has not.

The final chapter is that Rob and I have come to an agreement that we are both satisfied with.

Readers are known for their strong imaginations.

Use yours to fill in any details you find lacking....consider this an "interactive" novel.

[mainor5251]

Whatever bro, your the one that decided to make this public to begin with.

[will.vend]

Do not ask for details.

I will not provide them. 

Suffice it to say, we are both satisfied.

I find it anti-climatic that you are willing to give so many details and then in 3 short sentences you dismiss all of us!

[antoniocinisi]

Whatever bro, your the one that decided to make this public to begin with.

twice.keep us in the loop or dont tell us anything.

[sherlock]

My intent when I posted on this issue was to either give people a heads-up or ask for advice.

Posting the details of our agreement will do neither as the resolution is very specific to my order with Rob/KSL.

So I figured that info wasn't needed...and I stand by that decision.

I don't see how it would benefit anyone to post more details.

Posting all or none is not the way things work around here.

Most of us give advice and offer details about our way of doing things, but don't reveal anything we prefer to withhold.

And, by the way, I was just joking about the "interactive novel" comment.

Nothing on that post was meant to be taken seriously.

I find some of these last posts funny, considering  none of you were interested enough in this subject to offer advice when I requested it.

[The Mage]

No. It has not.

The final chapter is that Rob and I have come to an agreement that we are both satisfied with.

Readers are known for their strong imaginations.

Use yours to fill in any details you find lacking....consider this an "interactive" novel.

Uh... you don't want to do that with my imagination.