andyinchville Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 HI All, I have a bit of an unfortunate situation came up recently and was hoping for some input on what should be done....(I will try to keep it short but unfortunately I think it may be a little longish still). Anyways, recently, my helper told me that one of the schools that we service put a note our snack machine requesting that the machine was not to be filled until we ( I ) called the school. I contacted the school and after playing phone tag trying to get a hold of the book keeper (the one I was supposed to call) I was finally able to connect with the bookkeeper....A new book keeper who took over after the old book keeper retired in August. I learned from the new book keeper that commissions had not been paid since August ( after the old book keeper retired) .........FYI - I used to service this location personally and would give the "old" book keeper the commission in cash and my helper was doing the same (also, the man I bought the route from did the same w/ the old book keeper ....they had no problem w/ receiving cash but now the old book keeper retired and my helper had not been leaving $$ with anybody since now there was nobody to leave the funds with (yes, I wished he would have informed me of the the old book keeper leaving so I could have located the new person to get the commission $$ to but unfortunately this was not done since I did not learn of anything being wrong until my helper told me of the note on the machine). Anyways, flash forward to now and the new book keeper is mad that they have not received $$ since August.....I explained to the new person I would ask my helper what was going on and why he may not have tried to locate a new person to give the $$ to. I told the new book keeper that I would get to the bottom of the issue and assured her that this should not have even have happened and that they would get any commissions due to the school). My helper told me the old book keeper retired and that he did not feel comfortable leaving the $$ in an empty office...I asked him why he did not ask somebody in the office (school office) who to leave the funds with and he explained to me that nobody is around when he is there (I thought that was hard to believe that nobody is around in a school office but then he told me he services the stop before the school even thinks about opening (the early AM custodian lets him in before any office people, teachers, or students arrive to the school)....so that appears to be the reason he had for not paying. After explaining the situation to the "new" book keeper, she went into a speech about how the school was being short changed (she wondered why their commission was "only" averaged about $7 per visit...I explained to her the school gets 10% of the gross and that the stop really did not sell that much ( 50 cent chips / nabs and 75 cent cakes and candy...yes, I know pretty low but more recently we did raise the candies / cake to 85 cents)....in any event, she claimed that the school could make more $$ by selling their own products (she claimed she did candy bar vending for charity before and claimed the margins were much higher....I explained to her that on the average candy costs us about 56 cents each so margins when it was 75 cents was pretty low....I did ask her if I could get her source for candy but she had no answer)... In the end, she basically wanted the key to the machine which she claimed belonged to the school.... OK now a little about that..... Awhile back (about 5 years now) I bought a vending route from David (who in turn owned the route for about 4 years before me.).....the school in question was a part of that route I bought. One interesting thing to mention was that before I bought the route, David used to go to the school to service the machine himself (of course when I was learning the stops before buying it I serviced the route with him to learn the stops and be introduced to the people at the stops)...David used to let the old book keeper hold onto the key to remind him to pay commissions (since he would ask for the key each time he serviced the machine he would remember to pay the commissions....good Idea I guess...or maybe not as we'll see.... Anyways, after I bought the route I did the same routine w/ the school....go in ask for the key, service machine, pay commission to the old book keeper. After I grew a bit and was going to start having a helper service the location, I asked the old book keeper for the key back so I could make a copy for my helper.....she gave it back and made the comment she never knew why she held the key to our machine anyways so she more than willingly gave it to me. I made a copy of the key, gave one to my helper and kept one for myself and he had been servicing it for at least 2 years before the current events unfolded..... Flash back to today.... After talking w/ the book keeper again (I am trying to save the account and I was setting up an in person appointment / meeting with her (I figure face to face would be harder for her to kick us out and / or claim the machine as the schools machine).....Anyways, in closing she said she was willing to talk BUT to also bring the keys in case things didn't "work out"....I hinted again that I thought that that was inappropriate because I told her I believe the machine was ours (heck she just started working with the school recently too!).....She went to say that if need be she would have the machine locked away and stored at the school (Yes, this REALLY rubs me the wrong way BUT I did not push things further and told her I would meet with her in person tomorrow (Tuesday) or Wednesday.......(Oh, being ultimately paranoid about how things were going down I was tape recording the entire phone conversation and would most likely go to the meeting "wired" (wearing a recording device) just as a precaution.... The last thing I did today was to call David (previous route owner) and ask him if the machine was really his (before selling me the route)....He said that the machine was being serviced by another company before he got the school stop but the other company stopped servicing it for whatever reason.....He (David) was going to bring in his own machine but the school said an old machine was left and that he could have it....With that David said he took the machine (left it on site), fixed whatever was wrong with it and used it up until the point he sold the route to me (of course I have used it up until now also......Yes, I did record our conversation as well). I would like to keep the stop so I am meeting with the new book keeper today or Wed....I will of course make good on previous commissions, explain I would like to go on as business as usual BUT I really have no intentions of losing the stop OR especially (even if they no longer want us to service the school) the machine as well..... This situation seems to be made exceptionally more difficult by the new book keeper BUT I do understand that she feels the school is short changed BUT I wished she could have called the number on the machine way before now.......... What would you do? How would you handle this situation?.....How would you keep the machine if all else fails ( I think if the machine "disappears" I would be thankful that I tape recorded the conversation I had w/ the book keeper). Thanks in advance for any and all help in this matter (also, thanks for reading all the way through this). Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJT Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 If you can prove you bought the machine with the route and she can’t prove the school owns the machine the answer is pretty simple. Produce a bill of sale showing this machine as your and if she cant do that then that’s your answer. If she gets crappy about it and want let you remove it get your local law enforcement involved to remove your property. I stopped doing schools long ago for many of the reasons (and some you didn’t) you mentioned in your story. They want cheap prices, commissions, etc. Between local, state and federal gov. they screwed up school vending long ago, like they do most things about business. Not worth my time dealing with them so I don’t do them. Let someone else have the headaches. At this point I don’t see you making this lady happy so I would just pull out and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Possession is 9/10 of the law. I think more than the book keeper needs to be involved at this point. It sounds to me it most likely is the schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golfdogs Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Were they aware that you were recording conversations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJT Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Were they aware that you were recording conversations? Depending on which state (some states vary) that dosent matter as long as one party knows they are being recorded. In other words I couldnt record the principal and bookkeepers conversation without them knowing but perfectly fine for me (or him) to record my convesation with the bookkeeper as long as it was just the two of us in the conversation. Possession is 9/10 of the law. I think more than the book keeper needs to be involved at this point. It sounds to me it most likely is the schools. So does that mean all my accounts can claim they "own" it because they "posses" it on their location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snack dude Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I think I would have shown up early before today and removed the machine and called the book keeper and said we are not clearing enough and so we decided to pull out. I know I joke around on here some times but I am not kidding. I would have picked the up machine and made her prove it was theirs. I feel what you have here is a new book keeper trying to prove themselves and she wants you to know that there is a new sheriff in town. Also like RJT said. I too use to have several schools and I do not service schools anymore also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Yep, I agree 100% with snack dude. New book-keeper lady has been very consistent in her interactions with you. Even if you were to keep the stop somehow I can guarantee you this will not be the last headache she gives you. I've dealt with these people at plenty of locations and being cordial almost infuriates them even more. Forget tomorrow's meeting. Go in before any of the staff arrive and get your machine out of there. By the way..."He (David) was going to bring in his own machine but the school said an old machine was left and that he could have it....With that David said he took the machine (left it on site), fixed whatever was wrong with it and used it up until the point he sold the route to me (of course I have used it up until now also......Yes, I did record our conversation as well)" That's not enough. Who at the school told him he could have it? I suspect that neither you nor the book-keeper can prove ownership. Which is why, if you want that machine you had better get it out of there. A recorded conversation won't get you anywhere with the police if you cannot prove ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyinchville Posted November 12, 2013 Author Share Posted November 12, 2013 HI Guys, Thanks for the input so far.... As far as "ownership" papers I'll have to find the documents I got when I bought the route from David.....Since a lawyer had helped me to do the purchase (I was really paranoid at the the time since I had never bought anything so big or expensive as a vending route before) I'm sure there was plenty of paperwork etc that went along w/ the sale to protect me and my interests..... I know it may sound horrifying to some (and it still does for me to this day) but the lawyer charged me about $3000 to handle the transaction for me (the seller did pay half per the sale agreement so I guess we both were supposed to be protected in the sale of the route). As far as the recorded phone conversation, it was just between the book keeper and myself...We are both in Virginia.....I recorded it because I wanted a record of what was said....whether or not the conversation is admissible in court is another matter BUT at least I know I can prove what they said and I said if they would allow it to be heard...IF it has to go that far (which I am hoping it will not...I'd much rather have a smooth and easy relationship with the school). As far as the school claiming ownership, I'm not sure how (or why for that matter) they would think it is theirs (yes, it is located on their site but every machine I got with the route or have placed myself is on somebody else's property....(I do realize how the key issue was handled for many years may have made the illusion of the school "owning" the machine BUT it has been literally years since that situation was changed and the machine does have either my card or sticker on it inside the glass (If a business card) or outside the glass if it was a sticker (in all fairness I realize that simply possessing a key does not make a machine mine because I do currently do a high school with 3 machines in it that belongs to the school but I just service them and get the $$ from them (no commissions....they just got tired of the last people who had service the machines since they never filled them. I did switch the lock cylinders out to use my own so I didn't have to carry around an extra 3 key on my already huge key ring....If I ever lose the stop (not that I ever should since I always service this one myself), I would of course switch out the lock cylinders back to their original ones and give them back their keys (I would also remove the business cards from the machines as well etc... but I would never claim those machines as mine because I know full well they are not mine. While I plan on seeing if I can get things to work out with the bookkeeper, it was a good idea to go "higher up" if that does not pan out. I plan on seeing the book keeper on Wednesday now since I was not able to make it to the school by 11 AM today. Thanks again and if anybody can think of anything else I should say or do I am open to hearing it. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyinchville Posted November 12, 2013 Author Share Posted November 12, 2013 HI Snack Dude and Rick, Thanks for your recent input as well....you must have replied as I was typing my previous entry.... Yes, it may be "new sheriff syndrome" and the thought had briefly entered my mind to simply pull the machine before school opened BUT 3 reasons I really didn't want to do that was: 1) The stop is on the way out to my much further out stops and overall the stop it an OK money maker (not great by any means but OK and pretty steady). 2) The vending situation has been very stress free for literally years until just now ( and I do understand the book keepers concern over the late commissions but I can and will take care of that) and it is always a pain moving and storing machines (even more painful if the machine is making OK $$ as this one is and the fact that I don't have a lot of extra storage space available). 3) If I did pull the machine early in the AM that could possibly go down badly.....being a school in a post mass school shooting era I am pretty sure there are most likely cameras around so they could "see" me anyways....then if the evidence I had as far as the machine being mine was not found to be sufficient (if it went to court) then I may be arrested for theft ?!?....now THAT would really suck (lose a stop, a machine, and possibly jail time ?...WOW...I didn't want to even thing about that although truthfully I have no earthy idea what they are basing their "ownership" of the machine on (of course I am basing my ownership on the paperwork I got when I bought the business and the recent phone conversation w/ the previous route owner and his previous conversation with the school.....I would hate to have it all boil down to the old book keeper (If she was the one who "gave" the machine to David in the first place) and her memory of what went down to determine my fate if I removed the machine.....while the old book keeper is not old and senile, I would hate for her to not remember what she told me regarding the key to get me all messed up if I did pull the machine while all this turmoil is going on. I guess life would be dull without exciting stuff like this going on every once in awhile ! (personally, I could use a little more "dull time" tho !) Andrew PS - not that it would happen BUT just curious.....if a court thought my evidence of ownership was weak and the schools evidence of ownership was weak (again I have no idea how the school would "own" the machine in the first place), how would ownership be decided? (back in the day ALL lance machines were owned and run by Lance employees, later employees were dropped by the company and made to become Independent Business Owners (IBOs) , somehow an IBO stopped servicing the machine and left it at the school where the school may or may not have legally taken possession of the property as abandoned (there is a legal and formal procedure in VA to get property as abandoned BUT If I were a betting man I would think the school did not do (of course I could be wrong) so my guess is , the old IBO left the machine on school property, the school said David could have the old machine (even tho technically the school was probably NOT legally authorized to do so IF they had NOT formally gotten the machine as "abandoned" and Dave got the machine by default (just took it?), and then it transferred to me which may theoretically belong to somebody else but in all practically may be ours now by default? wow soooo much to think about.....what do you think about this after thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CajunCandy Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Well think of it like this, maybe she has somebody else in mind for vending, willing to pay her more commission. If it is as far of a drive as you say,I would have to reconsider the location. I'm dealing with a new sheriff in town now at one of my locations, where I set my first chip and cold drink machine, the new owner thinks I'm making a killing there. Just enough to keep machines there, for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I am no lawyer and I would suggest you take any feedback you get to the question, "What would a judge decide..." on a public forum with a huge grain of salt. That being said, there's a reason they came up with the term "Possession is 9/10's of the law". If you have possession and it went to court it would be up to the school to provide proof of ownership (and the reverse is true if the school still had possession of the machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engineer1984 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Here is a link to a website for professional answers to questions like this: http://www.justanswer.com/ The attorneys on the site are good as are the other professions. I had a few questions regarding a LLC and they were answered within 2 days. The answer was quality and cost me about $45. I listened to the CEO on a entrepreneur podcast (http://ecorner.stanford.edu/authorMaterialInfo.html?mid=2868). He really set up a good system to check the abilities of his employees. It's worth a check at least. Hope this doesn't come off as 'advertising.' : ) Cheers, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snack dude Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 andy Not trying to be condescending and I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is intended. you are worrying about things that you cannot control. the one thing you can control is maintaining the possession of your machine. will you get arrested or taken to court? i do not know, but i do know that while all this is going on you could be looking for or already have a new location for the machine. And if you do get dragged into court it would be small claims court because the Value of the machine is less than 5,000 dollars. you will not need legal representation ( In Kentucky) You just go in and tell the judge heres why I own this machine period. Then it will be up to the school to prove that they own the machine. If that happens do not say "I think I own the machine" because that means your not sure. you own the machine period Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris1953 Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Just curious what model of machine are we talking about.... I am playing devils advocate. If you were to end up in court and the bookkeeper says Judge I told John the machine belonged to the school and he removed it anyway. It isn't uncommon for a school to own their own machines nor is it uncommon for for someone to fill them for the school. Having worked for Pepsi for 21 years I have seen many cases where we put machines on loan and the business would close and we were unable to retrieve the vendor. Many times they ended up in auctions or were taken over by new tenants. It was easy to prove whose machine it was by taking the serial number and calling the manufacturer to see who bought it. You may be able to do the same for this vendor. Unless the person you bought it from can produce a bill of sell from the school than the school still owns the machine. In that case you should be able to recoup the cost from the person you purchased it from. You having a bill of sale doesn't make it yours. It doesn't make you a criminal either. But it might if you remove it from the school property after being told it isn't yours. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snack dude Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 morris, i understand your position on this, my question is looking up the serial number will just tell you who originally bought the machine. but that machine may have sold five times. for all we know it may have been bought by the company that had the original contract and then it was sold to the next guy, and the next and so on, it sounds like its been there for years and people have come and retired and after a couple of turnovers the school thinks they own it. IMHO andy honestly bought the machine and he owns it unless the school can came prove otherwise. remember this issue has not come up until the new book keeper came along..So unless she has a Receipt showing the school originally bought the machine it belongs to andy my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moondog Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 HI All, I have a bit of an unfortunate situation came up recently and was hoping for some input on what should be done....(I will try to keep it short but unfortunately I think it may be a little longish still). Anyways, recently, my helper told me that one of the schools that we service put a note our snack machine requesting that the machine was not to be filled until we ( I ) called the school. I contacted the school and after playing phone tag trying to get a hold of the book keeper (the one I was supposed to call) I was finally able to connect with the bookkeeper....A new book keeper who took over after the old book keeper retired in August. I learned from the new book keeper that commissions had not been paid since August ( after the old book keeper retired) .........FYI - I used to service this location personally and would give the "old" book keeper the commission in cash and my helper was doing the same (also, the man I bought the route from did the same w/ the old book keeper ....they had no problem w/ receiving cash but now the old book keeper retired and my helper had not been leaving $$ with anybody since now there was nobody to leave the funds with (yes, I wished he would have informed me of the the old book keeper leaving so I could have located the new person to get the commission $$ to but unfortunately this was not done since I did not learn of anything being wrong until my helper told me of the note on the machine). Anyways, flash forward to now and the new book keeper is mad that they have not received $$ since August.....I explained to the new person I would ask my helper what was going on and why he may not have tried to locate a new person to give the $$ to. I told the new book keeper that I would get to the bottom of the issue and assured her that this should not have even have happened and that they would get any commissions due to the school). My helper told me the old book keeper retired and that he did not feel comfortable leaving the $$ in an empty office...I asked him why he did not ask somebody in the office (school office) who to leave the funds with and he explained to me that nobody is around when he is there (I thought that was hard to believe that nobody is around in a school office but then he told me he services the stop before the school even thinks about opening (the early AM custodian lets him in before any office people, teachers, or students arrive to the school)....so that appears to be the reason he had for not paying. After explaining the situation to the "new" book keeper, she went into a speech about how the school was being short changed (she wondered why their commission was "only" averaged about $7 per visit...I explained to her the school gets 10% of the gross and that the stop really did not sell that much ( 50 cent chips / nabs and 75 cent cakes and candy...yes, I know pretty low but more recently we did raise the candies / cake to 85 cents)....in any event, she claimed that the school could make more $$ by selling their own products (she claimed she did candy bar vending for charity before and claimed the margins were much higher....I explained to her that on the average candy costs us about 56 cents each so margins when it was 75 cents was pretty low....I did ask her if I could get her source for candy but she had no answer)... In the end, she basically wanted the key to the machine which she claimed belonged to the school.... OK now a little about that..... Awhile back (about 5 years now) I bought a vending route from David (who in turn owned the route for about 4 years before me.).....the school in question was a part of that route I bought. One interesting thing to mention was that before I bought the route, David used to go to the school to service the machine himself (of course when I was learning the stops before buying it I serviced the route with him to learn the stops and be introduced to the people at the stops)...David used to let the old book keeper hold onto the key to remind him to pay commissions (since he would ask for the key each time he serviced the machine he would remember to pay the commissions....good Idea I guess...or maybe not as we'll see.... Anyways, after I bought the route I did the same routine w/ the school....go in ask for the key, service machine, pay commission to the old book keeper. After I grew a bit and was going to start having a helper service the location, I asked the old book keeper for the key back so I could make a copy for my helper.....she gave it back and made the comment she never knew why she held the key to our machine anyways so she more than willingly gave it to me. I made a copy of the key, gave one to my helper and kept one for myself and he had been servicing it for at least 2 years before the current events unfolded..... Flash back to today.... After talking w/ the book keeper again (I am trying to save the account and I was setting up an in person appointment / meeting with her (I figure face to face would be harder for her to kick us out and / or claim the machine as the schools machine).....Anyways, in closing she said she was willing to talk BUT to also bring the keys in case things didn't "work out"....I hinted again that I thought that that was inappropriate because I told her I believe the machine was ours (heck she just started working with the school recently too!).....She went to say that if need be she would have the machine locked away and stored at the school (Yes, this REALLY rubs me the wrong way BUT I did not push things further and told her I would meet with her in person tomorrow (Tuesday) or Wednesday.......(Oh, being ultimately paranoid about how things were going down I was tape recording the entire phone conversation and would most likely go to the meeting "wired" (wearing a recording device) just as a precaution.... The last thing I did today was to call David (previous route owner) and ask him if the machine was really his (before selling me the route)....He said that the machine was being serviced by another company before he got the school stop but the other company stopped servicing it for whatever reason.....He (David) was going to bring in his own machine but the school said an old machine was left and that he could have it....With that David said he took the machine (left it on site), fixed whatever was wrong with it and used it up until the point he sold the route to me (of course I have used it up until now also......Yes, I did record our conversation as well). I would like to keep the stop so I am meeting with the new book keeper today or Wed....I will of course make good on previous commissions, explain I would like to go on as business as usual BUT I really have no intentions of losing the stop OR especially (even if they no longer want us to service the school) the machine as well..... This situation seems to be made exceptionally more difficult by the new book keeper BUT I do understand that she feels the school is short changed BUT I wished she could have called the number on the machine way before now.......... What would you do? How would you handle this situation?.....How would you keep the machine if all else fails ( I think if the machine "disappears" I would be thankful that I tape recorded the conversation I had w/ the book keeper). Thanks in advance for any and all help in this matter (also, thanks for reading all the way through this). Andrew I would get the hell out of there - the flaming golpher is on an power/ego trip and will cause you and everyone else around her nothing but trouble. I've seen this one before - had to fire a secretary with this syndrome once. She won't last long but you need to pick up your stuff before this really gets miserable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojorhino Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 I have only ever paid a commission on one account I had in the past (10 percent of my net profit paid quarterly) & I only paid it because it was part of an agreement the previous owner of the machine had made with the manager of the location where the machine was. Something things that throw up a red flags for me regarding your scenario on this one are? Why were you paying them in cash instead of writing them a check & making it out to the school board/system or something like that? . . . Most business frown against this type of scenario because the person receiving the cash could just pocket the money. I used to be a manager for a major retailer & some of our vendors would try & give me as well other managers gifts like free beer, football tickets or cash in return for strategically placing their products within their store. The company I worked for had a no tolerance policy against receiving gifts for personal gain & several managers were fired after upper management found out they were accepting gifts/cash for personal gain. Do you have signed receipts for when the payments were made? . . . I always gave the person I paid the commission to a receipt to do with what they wanted & had them sign a receipt as proof that I had paid them. Currently I no longer pay commissions to any of my locations after the manager I was paying in cash was fired by upper management once they found out about our agreement. I was able to prove that I was paying the manager by showing upper management the signed receipts. I still have that account & now get to keep the approximately $300-400 per year I was paying in commission. Regarding commissions . . I basically won't pay them, but could be persuaded to pay them if I had a huge account that justified it, but that would take really really really really good account & I still would not like doing it just for the principle of it. I definitely would not pay one to anyone who expected me to sell candy bars & pastries for 75 cents & chips for 50 cents. You can't make any profit with those kind of margins so you are basically working for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walta Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 First I think the school has a better claim to the machine. Second I am betting we are talking about talking about 20 year old machine that is not worth 700.00 Third never pay commission in cash to any public entity. In St Louis we had a big scandal where the high school coach pocked the vending commission over 20 years. I say walk away without burning any bridges. If you did get the machine out she would likely file a police report. A very few hours attorney and you are in the hole. In the long run it is not worth the bad publicity. Walta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyinchville Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 HI Guys, Thanks for the additional input.....here's the latest in the saga (FWIW - I've learned a lot in dealing w/ this situation and maybe it can come in handy should somebody else find themselves in a similar unfortunate situation so [please keep the great input coming)..... Anyways, I went to the school today to see the book keeper but she was not in when she said she would be...they said she had gotten delayed at an offsite meeting. I spoke with another lady in the office and she indicated to me that she thought I was to bring the key to them BUT I took the advice above and stood fast that the machine was ours and that I had no idea how the school would or could lay claim to a company owned machine (Lance machine) and that the machine had been bought and sold by previous Lance service providers and handed off down the line Lance route service provider to Lance route service provider (the previous owner David then myself now). The lady in the office, while not the book keeper, said she had worked at the school for over 20 years and she said the machine had been abandoned by the the person before David (the man I got the route from) and that the school only let David use "their" machine.....then (supposedly) David allegedly treated the machine as his and then sold the route to me.....that was how she said things went down. Interestingly, if the school is attempts to lay claim to the machine through abandonment there are specific procedures that are required by law in order for them to consider the machine to be theirs through abandonment.... As an aside, I seriously doubt that they have the paperwork needed to back up that claim ( While I do not know the exact steps required to get a machine via abandonment, I believe there is a need to post a legal ad in a newspaper amongst other things....I'll have to look up the formal requirements for that to happen in VA (of course the laws may have changed because the machine in question has been there many years (David owned the route for about 4 years then I have had it for about 5 years). I guess if the school cannot provide a bill of sale to them (which I don't think I've ever heard from them say that they bought the machine) and if they cannot prove they followed legal procedures for the taking of abandoned property.....I guess that should mean that they have no hold on the machine right? (on the flip side and this may even complicate matters further I think David may have mentioned something along the lines that when he got the school location he was going to bring his own machine but the school told him there was an abandoned machine there that he could have.....(this brings up the question again, did the school legally take possession of the machine THEN "gave" it to David OR was it literally, hey there's a machine here that was abandoned and you can use it if you can open it up and start using it (i.e. school took no legal claim to the machine and said you can do what you want with the machine just sitting here).....ON the flip side of this, the last book keeper did say directly to me when I asked for the key back (so I could make a copy of it so Greg could start servicing the stop for me) that she had no idea why she was holding the key to my machine to start with. As an aside, I spoke with Greg (my helper servicing this stop for me) and he said that David let the school hold the key so that they could give out snacks that hung up or failed to vend (that would save David from having to drive out to take care of misvends being that this stop was his farthest out stop at the time....I guess that made sense to me....Oh by the way, (in case you are wondering) Greg sold the route to Daivd originally (and Greg used to help David with the vending business like moving / fixing machines etc), then David sold the route to me and David would sometimes help me with vending if needed but one day he was unable to help me when I needed it so he referred Greg to me and then eventually Greg became my helper....Complicated huh? Anyways, I stood fast that I would not and did not plan on returning the keys since the machine was ours and that I would like to return things to "normal"...I mentioned to them that I got the list of items and stops that cane with the route purchase and that was included on the list when I got the route from David. I indicated that I wanted to meet face to face with the book keeper (I suppose if I cannot get a satisfactory outcome with her I would ask to speak to the principal or other higher up person BUT I will try to work it our with her first.....I suppose the chain of command should be followed. In answer to a question above (as to why not just let the stop go if it was so far out) , this stop was at one time one of our farthest out location. However, we now have stops even further out so this stop is in fact on the way to the even further stops....a stepping stone as it were.. Oh, I did contact a law firm regarding this and their basic feeling was that I should ask the school for their written proof that they bought the machine if that is what made them the owners.... I suppose the last "ace" up my sleeve (if the matter were to go further...even as far as court) would be that I know the make, model and serial number of the machine and I doubt that the supposed school "owners" would even know that (of course if they drill out the lock in the meantime I guess that could learn that was well). Actually, with the above in mind, I wonder If I should put some of that "tamper" indicating tape on the machine so if they attempt to open the machine (to learn the info) , I could always say that the only reason they know that info is because they broke into MY machine.....I do realize that that sounds extreme but I have a bad vibe on this if the minute I walk in to the office, the people who know the book keeper at the school want the key back... My thinking about fighting for the machine is that it is bad to lose any decent stop to start with BUT to also lose a machine that you own too would be like salt in the wound (or worse). I will try to see the book keeper again tomorrow. Thanks for the continued input on this... everything here it is really helpful in one way or another Andrew PS - Oh, in answer to a question above, the reason I paid in cash to the previous book keeper was just because David used to pay cash to the previous book keeper and I was just following suit...that is the same reason my helper Greg paid the old book keeper cash (because I did it)....There was never any receipts needed and there were never any problems until the old book keeper retired and the new one took over and Greg failed to find out who to give the $$ to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snack dude Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Andy, Keep us informed, I am very interested in how it turns out for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moondog Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Sounds like David owes you some compensation as he sold you a machine he didn't own. I hate to sound like a vending snob here but a Lance machine is really not worth getting all worked up about. Let them find somebody else to service it and get yourself an account that doesn't require you to discount everything to the bone and then pay commission - that's just nuts and the more experienced vendors on this forum wouldn't want that account or the Lance machine that goes with it. This kind of stuff ticks me off but I learned a long time ago about "cutting off my nose to spite my face". Your time is your most valuable asset and losing this account is a blessing in disguise. Fight the battles you can win - I just don't see any upside here no matter which way this goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission vending Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 A lot of this will come down to your attitude and demeanor. If you act confident and sure of yourself then she will probably back off, if you are unsure she will think she is right and continue to persue it. A lot of this will come down to your attitude and demeanor. If you act confident and sure of yourself then she will probably back off, if you are unsure she will think she is right and continue to persue it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKK Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 I agree 100% with moondog I wouldnt have those prices on non commission places and especially not in commission places. I say you wait to speak to them since you seem to want this account. I see many mistakes here, but it does sound that you wasted 3000 on lawyer fees that did nothing as that machine didnt belong to David. If she says they own it, dont fight it just let them keep it. If you fight it you may end up paying more in attorney fees or court costs than that Machine is worth as thats all your fighting for. They can easily kick you out even if you win it doesnt mean David owned The account. So A) she cant prove its theirs, you pay a ton of fees and waste time and keep a 300$ machine she wins keeps the machine, and tou paid fees Either way you can kiss the account goodbye since it seems they have their mind set Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryChris Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Andy, I want to bring a few things up to consider before I give you my advice. Let me say that I totally understand your mindset when it comes to losing a customer -- you don't want to lose anyone. First, you have already made it clear that you don't make that great of money there. It is a school and it will probably never get any better. You have also made it seem quite apparent that the machine is an old dog and, as many of us have mentioned, it is probably not worth having anyway. The book keeper is going to give anyone hell if she chooses to. She might REALLY want you to give her the commission AND the key so that she can feel REALLY satisfied when she takes the commission money that you JUST gave her and HIRES ANOTHER VENDOR to come out and change the locks AGAIN so that you have no more access (well that's all conspiracy stuff but anyway..) This isn't worth going to court over. I have a CD-7/5 out in the field. If someone stole it out of the break area it is in, I would probably hunt them down and buy them a free lunch for saving the moving expense. Here is my advice: take a generic cylinder/lock with you as well as a crappy validator that SHOULD work with that machine (whether it does or not) and a crappy coin-mech (working or not) and swap it all out. Take your product out and all of the money (empty the coin mech) and leave the key in the cylinder. Tell them the machine is all their's and walk away! Should they call you to tell you the machine isn't working, offer to fix it for them for parts + labor. It is THEIR problem now. Keep this in mind too: No matter HOW GOOD YOUR SERVICE IS, this book keeper is going to tell everyone she knows that you are the WORST VENDOR EVER. Don't let her cause you any more hardship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrCorey Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 great. I wonder what other machines you bought that he didn't own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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